1 THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
2 DAVID ADELSON, ET AL )
3 VS. )
) CAUSE NO. 814461-0
4 PACIFICA FOUNDATION, )
A CALIFORNIA NONPROFIT )
5 CORPORATION, ET AL )
10 ORAL DEPOSITION OF
11 GARLAND GANTNER
12 FEBRUARY 7, 2001
ORAL DEPOSITION OF GARLAND GANTNER, produced as a witness
21 duly sworn by me at the instance of the Plaintiffs, taken
in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 7th day of
22 February, 2001, from 10:02 a.m. to 11:42 a.m., before
Mylinda Tubbs Faircloth, Certified Shorthand Reporter
23 No. 2896 in and for the State of Texas, via machine
shorthand, at the offices of Elite Reporting Service,
24 Inc., 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110, Houston, Texas 77027,
pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the
25 provisions stated on the record.
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
MR. DAN SIEGEL
3 SIEGEL & YEE
499 14TH STREET, SUITE 220
4 OAKLAND, CA 94612
5 FOR THE DEFENDANTS
MS. KATHY C. POTTER
6 EPSTEIN, BECKER & GREEN
1227 25TH STREET N.W.
7 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20037
4 Examination by Mr. Siegel....................4
5 Reporter's Pre-signature Certificate.............68
6 Witness's Signature Page/Corrections.............69
7 Reporter's Post-signature Certificate............71
9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED
10 326 Packing List, Telos Systems 37
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 FEBRUARY 7, 2001
3 GARLAND GANTNER,
4 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
6 BY MR. SIEGEL:
7 Q. Would you state your full name, please.
8 A. Garland Patrick Gantner.
9 Q. Okay. And what is your address? You can give
10 a work address.
11 MS. POTTER: Same -- okay.
12 A. It's 1419 Lovett Boulevard, Houston, Texas
14 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And that's for -- that's the
15 address of KPFT?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Okay. What is your date of birth?
18 A. February 3rd, 1964.
19 MS. POTTER: You just had a birthday.
20 Happy birthday.
21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Have you ever had your
22 deposition taken before?
23 A. No, I have not.
24 Q. Okay. Well, let me explain the process to you
25 a little bit. I'm sure Ms. Potter has, as well. My name
1 is Dan Siegel. I represent the plaintiffs in a lawsuit
2 called Adelson versus Pacifica -- Pacifica Foundation.
3 And the purpose of this deposition this morning is for me
4 to find out what you know about things that I believe are
5 relevant to the lawsuit. You may disagree as to whether
6 they're relevant or not, but basically it's my task here
7 to find out what you know about certain things.
8 And I'm going to do my best to ask
9 questions that are clear and straightforward, no tricks
10 involved. And if you answer them, I will assume the
11 question was clear and that you answered it in a
12 responsive way. So, my first request to you is to let me
13 know if my question is unclear, and I'll try to rephrase
14 it. Is that okay with you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. There are a couple of rules about
17 depositions. As you can see, everything is being taken
18 verbatim. So, we have to speak clearly and avoid, first
19 of all, interrupting each other. Because if we interrupt
20 each other, the court reporter is going to have a hard
21 time taking down the transcript. And sometimes, because
22 I'm slow, you may anticipate the end of my question. But
23 please wait until I finish until you answer. Is that all
25 A. That's fine.
1 Q. Okay. And you're doing a good job on this, but
2 sometimes people forget they're in a deposition and do
3 what we all do in casual conversation. We make gestures
4 with our hands or use sounds like "uh-huh" or "huh-uh,"
5 which don't come out very clearly on the record. So, we
6 do need to converse in the English language. Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. I guarantee we'll get you out in time
10 for lunch. But, again, the process is not to sort of,
11 well, wipe you out or tire you out. So, if you need a
12 break for any purpose, you can just say, I need a break
13 or take a walk or speak with counsel or whatever you need
14 to do.
15 During the course of the deposition,
16 Ms. Potter may raise objections, just like lawyers do in
17 court. But there's no judge here to rule on the
18 objections, and so the purpose of the objection is simply
19 to put it on the record for some future purpose. But you
20 will still have to answer the questions. The exception
21 for that is if she believes that one of my questions
22 invade a privilege, such as the attorney-client
23 privilege, and then she will not only object but will
24 instruct you not to answer. Do you understand that part
25 of the process?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Okay. At the conclusion of the deposition --
3 excuse me -- the -- the court reporter will prepare a
4 transcript of it and will make it available to you
5 through your attorney. Then you'll have an opportunity
6 to review it, to make corrections if there are
7 corrections that need to be made, or even to change the
8 substance of your answers if upon reflection you want to
9 change one of your answers.
10 But I need to advise you that in the event
11 that the deposition is later used during the trial of
12 this case or in pretrial motions and you have made
13 changes, I would have the right to comment on those
14 changes. Do you understand that?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. Do you have any questions today about
17 the process?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Is there any reason why you can't give
20 your best testimony today, such as fatigue or illness or
21 use of medication?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. All right. So, then we'll begin. Can
24 you give me your educational background, beginning with
25 high school graduation, please?
1 A. Attended high school here in the Houston area,
2 Clear Creek High School, and then attended the University
3 of Houston where I studied radio/television and history.
4 Q. Okay. And did you graduate from the University
5 of Houston?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. When did you attend?
8 A. Early through mid-1980s.
9 Q. Okay. And how many units did you accumulate?
10 A. My best recollection is a little over a hundred
12 Q. Okay. And during the time that you were at the
13 University of Houston, did you work at all in the radio
14 or communications industry?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And what did you do?
17 A. I worked at KRBE radio in the newsroom. Also
18 did volunteer work at KACC, a community college station.
19 Q. Is KRBE a commercial station here in Houston?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And what kind of station is it?
22 A. At the time I worked there, it was a music and
23 news station.
24 Q. Okay. AM or PM -- AM or FM? PM, yeah.
25 A. FM.
1 Q. And was that a paid position that you held
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 Q. Okay. And what was your title?
5 A. I had two different titles. The -- my first
6 position there was a board operator. Second position was
7 editorial assistant.
8 Q. Okay. And what did you do professionally after
9 you left KRBR [sic]?
10 A. I did some temporary and vacation relief work
11 over the summer at a couple of other radio stations here
12 in Houston and then went to work at KPFT.
13 Q. Okay. And when did you go to work at KPFT?
14 A. March of 1986.
15 Q. Okay. And what was your position there?
16 A. I was hired as news director.
17 Q. Okay. And what were your functions as news
19 A. I was in charge of producing the daily newscast
20 and also overseeing public affairs programming on the
22 Q. And at that time, how long was the daily
24 A. The locally produced segment was a half hour.
25 Q. Okay. Were there also nationally produced
1 segments of the news?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what were they?
4 A. Pacific and network news.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And we also carried segments from the BBC world
8 Q. Okay. And then what was the local programming
9 that you were in charge of at that time?
10 A. The locally produced public affairs programs.
11 Q. And what were they?
12 A. There was a variety of them.
13 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what they were?
14 A. There was a local daily talk show that covered
15 a lot of different topics. I don't recall particular
16 program titles.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. That was 15 years ago. But there were other
19 talk shows, and there were some public affairs shows
20 dealing with specific issues.
21 Q. Such as?
22 A. Again, I don't recall particulars, but I know
23 we had a program that talked about African American
24 issues here in Houston. There was also another program
25 that dealt with the Hispanic community here in Houston.
1 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many hours a day KPFT
2 broadcasted in 1986?
3 A. The station was a 24-hour operation.
4 Q. And has it always been since then?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Again, going back to '86, and I realize your
7 memory may not be perfect on this, but do you have a -- a
8 recollection of in a 24-hour period the number of hours
9 devoted to public affairs, news, and talk as compared
10 with the number of hours devoted to music and
12 A. My best recollection is about -- probably about
13 five hours a day were spoken word.
14 Q. Uh-huh. And those would -- that would be news
15 and public affairs programming --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- and -- as well as particular programs that
18 dealt with ethnic issues and things like that?
19 A. I don't understand the question real clear.
20 Q. Oh, okay. I mean, I just want to be sure
21 what -- what's in this universe of five hours. You
22 mentioned news and publish affairs, and my question was
23 whether that also included the ethnic programming that
24 you mentioned.
25 A. Not necessarily, no.
1 Q. Because some of the ethnic programming was
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Was there -- was some of the programming
5 in languages other than English at that time?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. What languages?
8 A. Again, my best recollection, Spanish,
9 Vietnamese, and Hindi.
10 Q. Okay. How long did you serve as news director?
11 A. About five years.
12 Q. So, until about 1991?
13 A. Actually, it would have been about 1990.
14 Q. Okay. During that period of March of '86
15 through 1990, did your job responsibilities change?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. So, during that time, you -- you were
18 basically in charge of the news, the daily news program,
19 public affairs programming?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Okay. And during that period of time, did the
22 programming at KPFT change in any substantial way from
23 the way you've described it in terms of the mix between
24 music and spoken word and other kinds of things that were
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Who was the station manager when you
3 started out in March of '86?
4 A. Her name was Jean Palmquist.
5 Q. Okay. And did she remain as station manager
6 throughout the time that you were news director?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What happened in 1990 in terms of a change in
9 your job title or responsibilities?
10 A. That was the time when I became program
11 director of the station.
12 Q. Okay. What were your duties as program
14 A. As program director, I was responsible for the
15 overall on-air sound of the station.
16 Q. Okay. Could you amplify that a little bit?
17 A. I oversaw program staff and volunteers,
18 arranged to make sure that shifts were covered, helped
19 schedule new programs, recruit new programmers. It also
20 involved training.
21 Q. Okay. And who promoted you to the position of
22 program director?
23 A. I applied for the position and was hired by
24 Ms. Palmquist.
25 Q. Okay. Now, as program director, did you have
1 the authority to make changes in the programs that were
2 on the air?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So, bring in new programs as well as cutting
5 programs that existed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. How long did you remain as program
9 A. A little bit less than five years.
10 Q. Okay. So, until '94 or '95 sometime?
11 A. 1994.
12 Q. Okay. And during that time, did you make
13 changes in the programming of KPFT?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What kind of changes did you make?
16 A. Mostly changes in new personnel. Sometimes
17 people would leave, and I'd have to find new people, new
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. We also did some program changes during the --
21 during the daytime period during the week.
22 Q. Okay. What sorts of changes were they?
23 A. We did a little bit of basically moving
24 programs around --
25 Q. Uh-huh.
1 A. -- grouping -- grouping music programs together
2 at the same time of day and grouping public affairs
3 programs together at the same time of day.
4 Q. Okay. Did there continue to be a locally
5 produced news program while you were program director?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Who was the news director when you
8 became -- who -- let me rephrase that.
9 Who became news director when you became
10 program director?
11 A. A gentleman by the name of Shaun Gilson.
12 Q. There's a word that people use in radio, and
13 maybe you could help me remember it, which refers to the
14 overall approach or strategy or sound of a radio station.
15 Do you know what I'm talking about? Is it format? Is
16 that the word?
17 A. Some -- some people use that term.
18 Q. Okay. Is there another term that makes more
20 MS. POTTER: That makes more sense in
21 terms of what?
22 MR. SIEGEL: Well, just in terms of a word
23 that we could both use to describe the overall --
24 MS. POTTER: Look and feel?
25 MR. SIEGEL: -- programming approach of a
1 radio station.
2 A. Some people refer to it as just the sound of a
4 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. During the time that you
5 were program director, is there a -- a term that would
6 describe the format or sound of KPFT?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what is that?
9 A. Eclectic.
10 Q. Eclectic. Okay. Is that a term that would
11 still apply to KPFT?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And is that a term that would, say, in
14 the business be applied to the Pacifica network
16 A. I couldn't speak for the network generally but
17 for KPFT, yes.
18 Q. I mean, we hear terms like community sponsored
19 or public affairs oriented. Are those also terms that
20 would apply to KPFT?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. So, what did you do after you became --
23 or in 1994 what change or shift did you make from being
24 program director?
25 A. In 1994, I became station general manager.
1 Q. Okay. And that's the position that you hold
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And you've held it since 1994?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. How did you become station general
8 A. I applied for the position.
9 Q. All right. And had -- did you replace Jean
11 A. No.
12 Q. Had someone else become station manager after
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who is that?
16 A. Mary Helen Merzbacher.
17 Q. Mary Helen?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And how do you spell that last name?
20 A. I believe it's M-E-R-Z-B-A-C-H-E-R.
21 Q. Okay. And during what period of time did she
22 serve as station general manager?
23 A. She served as general manager from the time
24 Ms. Palmquist left until 1992.
25 Q. Okay. When did Ms. Palmquist leave?
1 A. Late 1989 or early 1990.
2 Q. Okay. And did someone serve as station manager
3 after Mary Helen Merzbacher left?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who is that?
6 A. Barry Forbes.
7 Q. Okay. Did he serve until the time you took
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And who was it who appointed you station
12 A. David Salniker.
13 Q. Okay. And what was his position at the time?
14 A. He was executive director of Pacifica
16 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that under
17 Pacifica's procedures it's the executive director who
18 appoints the station managers?
19 MS. POTTER: You mean hires the station
21 MR. SIEGEL: Hires, appoints, yeah.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Now, when you became
24 station general manager, did you take any steps to alter
25 the format or sound of KPFT?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what did you do?
3 A. After planning and consultation, we made the
4 decision -- I made the decision after consultation to
5 move the station towards more block programming.
6 Q. Okay. And what do you mean by that term?
7 A. Basically, a continuation of what we had done
8 earlier of grouping similar programs together.
9 Q. Uh-huh.
10 A. Even though we had done some of that a few
11 years before, there were still other parts of the
12 schedule where there were, you know, various programs on
13 various days of the week, various times of day. And
14 basically, we reorganized a lot of that programming. The
15 final result being that most of the music programming was
16 in one large block. Most of the news and public affairs
17 programming was in one large block.
18 Q. Okay. Is that the way it is today?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Why did you make that kind of change?
21 A. To make the station more successful, more
22 listenable, to draw a larger number of people to the
24 Q. And why did you think that doing this -- excuse
25 me -- block programming would make the station more
1 successful in the ways that you've described?
2 A. The way people use radio, they like to be able
3 to have some idea of what's going to be there when they
4 turn their radio on.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. With KPFT for many years, that wasn't the case.
7 And we knew that if we did block programming, that people
8 would find their station more accessible, listen more
10 Q. Okay. Was it your experience that -- I don't
11 know -- the average listener did not consult the folio to
12 determine what was going on in a particular half hour or
13 hour time slot?
14 A. Not here in Houston, no.
15 Q. Did -- did Houston have a folio?
16 A. Do you mean a program guide?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, I've been listening to KPFT the
20 last couple of days since I've been in town. Can you
21 give me a -- a sense of how these blocks work at this
22 point in terms of times of days when there's news and
23 public affairs on and when there's music on?
24 A. There's a morning music block from 6:00 to 8:00
25 a.m. Then there is a news and public affairs block from
1 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m., a music block from 10:00 a.m. to
2 6:30 p.m., a news and information block from 6:30 p.m. to
3 10:00 p.m., and then music overnight.
4 Q. Okay. So, that looks like about five and a
5 half hours a day of news and public affairs programming?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. That doesn't sound like a change from
8 the division that existed in terms of the overall time as
9 from when you became news director; is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Okay. Is the schedule different on weekends?
12 A. The schedule on weekends has pretty much
13 remained the same the whole time, and that's mostly
15 Q. I see. Okay. Has the content or, you know,
16 the content of the news and public affairs blocks changed
17 during the time that you've been station general manager?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How is that?
20 A. Since I've become general manager, we've added
21 "Democracy Now," a nationally produced daily show.
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. We have added a show dealing with technology
24 issues, and we also have a program dealing with the
25 African Diaspora here in Houston, African immigrants as
1 opposed to African Americans?
2 Q. Has there been a change in terms of the locally
3 produced news?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What's -- what's that change?
6 A. We do not at this time produce any locally --
7 locally produced news.
8 Q. Okay. And when did that change go into effect?
9 A. My best recollection, late 1995.
10 Q. And why was that decision made?
11 A. At the time, it was a budgetary decision.
12 Q. Okay. And now?
13 A. Now, we actually have a position for news
14 director posted. We have not made the hire yet.
15 Q. And is it your intention to have the news
16 director begin producing a local news program?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And when do you think that will occur?
19 A. My plan is to make that hire by the spring.
20 Q. Okay. And start a local news program by when?
21 A. I can't say for sure but sometime soon after
23 Q. Okay. Have there also been changes in terms of
24 non-English language programming?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What change has that been?
2 A. Over the years, we don't do foreign language
4 Q. Okay. And why is that?
5 A. We found that a lot of the foreign language
6 programming limited listener access to the station.
7 Q. Okay. How do you -- how do you determine
8 listener access?
9 A. I'm not sure I understand the question.
10 Q. Okay. How do you measure it or gauge it?
11 A. There's several different ways. We depend on
12 anecdotal information through phone calls and letters --
13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 A. -- listener comments. We also listen to the
15 local advisory board. That's one of the roles that they
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. And we also utilize scientific audience data.
19 Q. Arbitron ratings?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Has the listenership of KPFT changed in the
22 last five years in terms of numbers?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How has it changed?
25 A. The audience has more than doubled.
1 Q. Okay. From what to what?
2 A. I don't recall the specifics --
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. -- but it went from a weekly audience of
5 approximately 60,000 to a weekly audience of
6 approximately 140,000.
7 Q. Okay. How is your fund-raising doing?
8 A. It's doing well.
9 Q. Listening again last night, I guess, shortly
10 after whatever it was -- this was at 6:30 or 7:30 -- you
11 ended the fund drive last night?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. And did you meet the goals?
14 A. We exceeded the goals.
15 Q. So, pledges kept coming in after the drive went
16 off the air?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Because I think the last thing, I heard you
19 were still $300 or something away.
20 A. Near the end of the drive, yes.
21 Q. Okay. So, how much did you raise this year?
22 A. I don't know the exact figure for this year.
23 Q. What was the goal?
24 A. Oh, you mean for the membership drive that was
25 just completed?
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. The goal was 240,000.
3 Q. And you more than exceeded that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is that an increase over the last five
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. By how much?
9 A. Almost double.
10 Q. Okay. Is there a local advisory board for
12 A. Yes, there is.
13 Q. And how many members does that have?
14 A. Currently, eight.
15 Q. Okay. Has -- has the number of members of the
16 local advisory board grown over the last several years?
17 A. It's fluctuated both ways.
18 Q. What's the largest number that you've had?
19 A. I can't recall a particular.
20 Q. Okay. Can you give me an approximation?
21 A. 12.
22 Q. Okay. Are you attempting to increase the
23 membership of the LAB?
24 A. The advisory board is, yes.
25 Q. Okay. And what are they doing about that?
1 A. They do have a recruitment committee, and
2 they're currently engaged in trying to recruit new
4 Q. Okay. Some people around the country have made
5 the assertion or accusation that KPFT has veered away
6 from Pacifica's programming goals and philosophy. Have
7 you heard that?
8 A. Yes, I've heard that.
9 Q. What is your response to that?
10 A. I disagree. I think they're wrong.
11 Q. Okay. And, again, if you could go into more
13 A. KPFT still fulfills the Pacifica mission. We
14 have programming that addresses a lot of issues that
15 aren't addressed in any other media here in Houston, and
16 our -- our programming still reflects the cultural
17 diversity of the Houston area.
18 Q. Okay. Do you think the sound has improved
19 during the time that you've been station manager?
20 A. Yes, it has.
21 Q. In what respects?
22 A. Technically, the station sounds better.
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. Content wise, we're doing a much better job at
25 presenting the issues that we present.
1 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the -- the
2 strategic plan document that was developed in the mid
3 '90s --
4 MS. POTTER: Objection, no foundation.
5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) -- by Pacifica?
6 MS. POTTER: You can answer.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Has the development of KPFT
9 under your leadership in your opinion been consistent
10 with that strategic plan?
11 MS. POTTER: Consistent in what way?
12 MR. SIEGEL: Consistent, in accordance
14 MS. POTTER: I mean a strategic plan can
15 encompass a lot of different things. Is there one
16 specific part of the strategic plan that you're talking
18 MR. SIEGEL: Sure, the part that has to do
19 with the programming. I'm not talking about the
20 fund-raising or leadership. I'm talking about the
22 MS. POTTER: Okay.
23 A. Somewhat, yes.
24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you think that -- let me see
25 how can I ask this. Do you think that -- has the
1 strategic plan been an important blueprint for you as
2 you've developed your leadership of the station, or has
3 it kind of been incidental to your strategy for improving
4 the format and sound of KPFT?
5 A. It's served as a general guide --
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. -- but not specific.
8 Q. Okay. Can you think of ways in which the
9 development of KPFT under your leadership has been
10 different than the strategies outlined in the strategic
12 A. I -- I can't -- I can't speak to any specifics
13 because each station basically sort of runs itself within
14 general parameters.
15 Q. Okay. When I interviewed Dr. Berry a couple of
16 weeks ago, she said that from her point of view that the
17 goal was to both increase the reach of Pacifica's
18 progressive voice, as well as diversifying its listener
19 base. Those two things are not inconsistent, but they're
20 perhaps different aspects of a vision. Do you believe
21 that KPFT has done both of those things?
22 MS. POTTER: Objection.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Clearly, from what you've said,
25 the listenership has -- has grown a lot. Has the
1 listenership diversified?
2 A. Again, I can't recall specifics but generally,
4 Q. Okay. And does -- do the Arbitron or other
5 research data confirm that?
6 A. Again, without being able to recall specifics,
7 generally, yes.
8 Q. Okay. But my sense -- and I'm far from being
9 an expert on Houston. But just from being around here a
10 few days, this seems like a very diverse community in
11 terms of there are lots of Caucasian people, there are
12 lots of African Americans, there are lots of Hispanics, a
13 lot of Asians. Is that a fair assessment, or am I seeing
14 too narrow a slice?
15 A. Generally, yes.
16 Q. Okay. And in terms of the major racial and
17 ethnic groups, are you doing things to appeal to each of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what does your LAB look like in terms of
21 the diversity of its membership.
22 A. Currently, there are six Caucasians, one
23 African American, and one Hispanic.
24 Q. Okay. And what sort of things are you doing to
25 increase listenership in the African American community?
1 A. A lot of our cultural programming is designed
2 to appeal to that community. And as I mentioned earlier,
3 we, you know, have some new -- relatively new public
4 affairs programming that addresses issues for that
6 Q. Okay. How about the Hispanic community?
7 A. Again, there is some programming designed to
8 appeal to that community, and topics of concern to that
9 community are covered in our public affairs shows.
10 Q. When you say "programming," is -- like musical
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. How about the Asian community?
14 A. We do not have any programming geared
15 specifically for the Asian community.
16 Q. Okay. Is that something you plan to look at or
17 are thinking about?
18 A. I really can't say.
19 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me change the topic and
20 talk about Berkeley. In 1999, you -- you went to
21 Berkeley for a period of time, right?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Okay. How did that occur?
24 A. My supervisor, Lynn Chadwick, called and asked
25 if I could come to Berkeley for an undetermined amount of
1 time to help manage KPFA.
2 Q. And when did she do that?
3 A. July of that year.
4 Q. Okay. And what did you say?
5 A. I'm sorry. What did she say?
6 Q. What did you say?
7 A. I said yes, that I would go.
8 Q. Okay. And what did she say as to why she was
9 asking you to do this?
10 A. She told me that she needed somebody to help
11 manage KPFA. They did not have a general manager at the
13 Q. Okay. And what had happened to the general
15 A. They -- they didn't have a general manager at
17 Q. Okay. Well, there had been a general manager,
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It was Nicole Sawaya?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And at a certain point prior to July, she was
23 no longer the general manager; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Okay. And there was a gap, wasn't there,
1 between Sawaya's leaving and Chadwick's call to you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what's your understanding as to who was
4 running the station during that period of time?
5 A. I -- I don't know. I can't answer that.
6 Q. Okay. When you got there, did you see that
7 someone was running the station before you got there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Did Lynn Chadwick indicate why it was
10 that she wanted you to take on the situation in Berkeley?
11 A. What she told me was that there was not a
12 general manager in place at KPFA and that they needed
13 someone who could help manage some of the day-to-day
14 operations of the station.
15 Q. Okay. But did she say why you versus someone
16 who was not engaged in the business of running KPFT in
17 Houston at the time?
18 A. No. She didn't say anything one way or the
19 other on that.
20 Q. Okay. So, how long -- how much time elapsed
21 between Lynn Chadwick's call to you and your arrival in
23 A. A few days.
24 Q. Just a few?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. What kind of arrangements did you have
2 to take to leave Houston?
3 MS. POTTER: Objection, relevancy.
4 A. Could you repeat the question?
5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. I mean, what did you
6 have to do to get yourself ready to leave? I take it
7 this -- this was not expected. Am I correct about that?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 MS. POTTER: You're not asking him what he
10 personally had to do to -- with his life to go to
11 Berkeley, are you?
12 MR. SIEGEL: Well, yeah, I am.
13 MS. POTTER: Objection.
14 MR. SIEGEL: But I can break it up.
15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) What did you have to do in
16 order to ensure that the station continued to operate in
17 your absence?
18 A. I had and have complete confidence in the staff
19 at KPFT to operate the station for a short period of time
20 in my absence, so there was no major problem for me to
22 Q. Who was in charge at the station while you were
24 A. The -- the management team of the station.
25 Q. Okay. Who are they?
1 A. That would be the program director and the
2 development director.
3 Q. Okay. Who is the program director?
4 A. At that time, it was Edmundo Resendez.
5 Q. Okay. And the development director?
6 A. Molly O'Brien.
7 Q. Okay. Molly O'Brien is your wife, correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Okay. And how did you get to the Bay Area?
10 Drive? Fly?
11 A. I flew.
12 Q. Okay. When did you first come -- or first
13 arrive at KPFA?
14 A. On a Tuesday afternoon. I don't recall a
15 specific date. Lynn Chadwick and I called a staff
16 meeting at KPFA, at which time she introduced me to the
17 staff and that I would be helping to manage the station.
18 Q. Okay. Well, was that before or after July 4th?
19 A. After.
20 Q. How many days was that before the incident
21 where Dennis Bernstein was taken off the air?
22 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't get into
23 any personnel issues.
24 MR. SIEGEL: This is not a personnel
1 A. Same day.
2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Same day. Okay. So, that
3 would have been July 13th, 1999?
4 A. I don't recall the specific date.
5 Q. All right. Do you recall that at some point
6 after you took over there was a -- I don't know exactly
7 what you call the item -- a transmitter rerouting device
8 of some sort?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Well, at some point after you arrived in
11 Berkeley, there were changes made in the programming, at
12 least temporarily, correct?
13 A. Temporarily, yes.
14 Q. Okay. There was a decision made to -- to play
15 various tapes of music and interviews that -- from the
16 Pacifica archives.
17 MS. POTTER: Objection.
18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you recall that?
19 MS. POTTER: No foundation.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And when was that decision
23 A. I -- I don't recall the specifics, but I
24 made -- I made the decision to air those tapes.
25 Q. Okay. And isn't it true that the decision was
1 made prior to your arrival in Berkeley?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, isn't it true that the -- at that time
4 Pacifica's archives were housed in Los Angeles. Am I
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that -- the decision you made to
8 temporarily change the programming of KPFA meant that you
9 were going to use materials from the archives?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And weren't those materials or at least some of
12 those materials on hand when you arrived in Berkeley?
13 A. A very small number of tapes were at KPFA.
14 Q. Okay. And were they -- did you then obtain
15 more from the archives?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What was done to get more of the archival
18 material on the air at KPFA?
19 A. While I was there, we only aired the few tapes
20 that were there.
21 Q. Okay. Were other things done to -- besides
22 airing those tapes to change the programming at KPFA?
23 A. I drew from the KPFA music library.
24 Q. Okay. Were things done electronically to allow
25 KPFA to access other programming materials?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was done?
3 A. Again, I don't recall the technical specifics.
4 But for a short period of time, programming that was
5 produced here in Houston was piped into KPFA.
6 Q. Okay. And was that done through the integrated
7 services digital network?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. I'm sorry. I've got
10 just one copy of this document with me, but let me have
11 marked as whatever our next in order is --
12 THE REPORTER: 326.
13 MR. SIEGEL: -- 326 a document entitled
14 Telos Systems Packing List, please.
15 (Brief pause.)
16 (Exhibit No. 326 was marked.)
17 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Mr. Gantner, I'm showing you
18 Exhibit 326. Do you recognize this document?
19 A. It looks like a receipt or shipping invoice.
20 Q. Okay. Have you seen this before?
21 A. I can't say specifically, no.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I can't say for sure.
24 Q. Do you know what the Crouse-Kimzey Company is?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What is that?
2 A. They are a broadcast equipment company,
4 Q. In Texas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it a company that you do business with?
7 A. I -- I can't say for sure without knowing for
9 Q. Okay. Do you know who Keith Hubbard is?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. All right. Well, this document appears
12 to be dated or at least it has an order date of June
13 29th, 1999. Do you see that up in --
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. -- the left side?
16 A. Yes, I see that.
17 Q. And then at the bottom it says shipped -- looks
18 like June 29th, 1999, although it's hard to read. But
19 then under estimated shipping date, again it seems to
20 indicate June 29th, 1999. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I see that.
22 Q. And then in the "Ship to," it says, "Pacifica,
23 Hold at Federal Express, 1221 Broadway" and a PO number,
24 "Garland G."
25 A. Yes, I see that.
1 Q. Is that you?
2 A. I presume. I can't say for sure it is.
3 Q. Okay. And the product name is a Zephyr-9200,
4 ISDN, space, SU. Do you know what that is?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. What is that?
7 A. That is a ISDN audio codec.
8 Q. Okay. So, what's that?
9 A. It's a piece of equipment that can be used to
10 hook two points up via ISDN telephone line.
11 Q. Okay. So, was this piece of equipment used to
12 hook up the KPFA transmitter with the facilities of KPFT
13 in Houston?
14 A. It could be.
15 Q. Was it?
16 A. An ISDN was installed at the KPFA transmitter
17 while I was there in July.
18 Q. Okay. And it was used to connect the KPFA
19 transmitter with KPFT facilities?
20 A. For a period of time, yes.
21 Q. Okay. I guess what I want to focus in on here
22 is the -- is the timing. Assuming that the date here is
23 accurate, somebody thought they should -- could ship
24 things to you in Oakland on June 29th, which is two weeks
25 before you arrived?
1 MS. POTTER: Objection. He said he didn't
2 know if that was him.
3 MR. SIEGEL: Okay.
4 A. (By Mr. Siegel) I don't know, you know, who or
5 what took place regarding, you know, issues before I was
6 called and asked to go to Berkeley.
7 Q. Okay. Were you involved in ordering this piece
8 of equipment?
9 A. No, not that I recall.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know who ordered it?
11 A. No, I do not.
12 Q. What is your best understanding as to when
13 there was a decision made to connect the KPFA transmitter
14 with KPFT so that programs produced here could be played
15 over at KPFA?
16 A. I don't know who else or what else may have
17 been discussed before I became involved. I made the
18 decision shortly before I returned to Houston that we
19 would hook up the studio here at KPFT with the KPFA
21 Q. Okay. When did you return to Houston, by the
23 A. I don't recall the specific date, but it was
24 about two weeks after I arrived.
25 Q. Okay. So, you were in Berkeley for about two
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Who made the decision to suspend the regular
4 programming on KPFA?
5 A. That was my decision.
6 Q. Okay. And when did you make that decision?
7 A. Again, I don't recall a specific date, but it
8 was that Tuesday evening that I referred to earlier.
9 Q. Okay. The same date as you arrived?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. The same date as you first went to KPFA?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And why did you make that decision?
14 A. The station had been overrun by a crowd of
15 people. And basically in order to be able to take
16 control of the building and the air space, I made the
17 decision to switch to backup programming.
18 Q. Prior to making that decision, had you
19 discussed the decision with Lynn Chadwick?
20 A. I did not discuss it with her. I asked her if
21 something happened that I felt I needed to do that, would
22 that be okay. And she told me to do what I felt was
23 necessary at the moment on the spot.
24 Q. Okay. Did you make any technical preparations
25 for that program change?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What -- what technical preparations did you
4 A. As I mentioned before, there were some tapes
5 from the Pacifica archives that were there at KPFA.
6 There was also another Pacifica employee that was there
7 with me, and I had instructed him to take those tapes to
8 a backup studio within the building and to switch the
9 programming over to that studio.
10 Q. Who was that?
11 A. Mark Torres.
12 Q. When was -- when did planning begin to allow
13 you to use the Houston programming over a KPFA
15 A. I can't recall a specific date. But during the
16 second week that I was in Berkeley, I developed the plan
17 that would allow us to be able to broadcast over KPFA
18 from someplace besides the studio there in Berkeley.
19 Q. Okay. And what did that plan consist of?
20 A. We had been airing the archive tapes and the
21 music drawn from the local library. I could not stay
22 indefinitely at KPFA. So, I proposed that we utilize the
23 ISDN to pipe in programming from KPFT. It was not KPFT
24 programming. It was not a repeat of what was airing in
25 Houston. It was a specific separate stream of
1 programming that was produced in Houston sent via ISDN to
2 Berkeley and transmitted.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know that the technological
4 preparations for doing that had begun before you arrived
5 at Berkeley?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you saying it didn't, or you don't know
9 A. I -- I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. Did Lynn Chadwick ever indicate to you
11 that those preparations had begun prior to your arrival?
12 A. Prior to my arrival, no.
13 Q. After you arrived, did she indicate to you that
14 those preparations had begun?
15 A. She told me that equipment was available if I
16 needed to utilize it.
17 Q. And that equipment included the ISDN?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall any conversations with Lynn
20 Chadwick or anyone else in Pacifica in June regarding the
21 possibility of your assuming responsibility to run KPFA?
22 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. What do you recall about
1 A. There was informal talk amongst the various
2 senior management of the station -- of the various
3 stations around the country about, you know, what could
4 or might happen at KPFA.
5 Q. Okay. And -- and in what context did that talk
7 A. The senior management was gathered together for
8 a board meeting in Washington, D.C., and KPFA came up as
9 a topic of, you know, informal discussion.
10 Q. Okay. So, that's conversation with the
11 national staff, as well as the station program managers ?
12 A. National staff and station -- station general
14 Q. Station managers, excuse me. And that meeting
15 was when, in May of '99?
16 A. I don't recall. It was before I went to
17 Berkeley, but I don't recall a specific date.
18 Q. Okay. And in the course of that discussion,
19 did someone suggest that -- or did someone ask you
20 whether you would be available to go to Berkeley?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was that?
23 A. I don't recall specifically. There were a lot
24 of us in the meeting. And, like I said, it was an
25 informal discussion. People were just talking off the
1 top of their heads.
2 Q. Okay. But someone mentioned to you the
3 possibility of going to Berkeley at that time?
4 A. Among other people, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And did you indicate that you might be
7 A. I -- I don't recall the specifics.
8 Q. Okay. But say your name was, quote, "out
9 there" at that time?
10 A. With others, yes.
11 Q. Was there conversation about anybody else going
12 to Berkeley?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who was that?
15 A. I think -- my best recollection is that, you
16 know, all of the general managers were considered along
17 with perhaps some of the national office staff.
18 Q. And did other people demur?
19 A. I -- I really don't remember.
20 Q. Okay. Tell me your recollection of the
21 incident with Dennis Bernstein that occurred prior to
22 taking KPFA's regular programming off the air.
23 MS. POTTER: Objection to the extent this
24 would have to get into any personnel issues.
25 Don't answer anything about personnel
2 A. I can't answer that because it deals with a
3 personnel issue.
4 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Well, tell us what
5 happened in the studio on July 13th, 1999 with Dennis
7 A. I -- I told Dennis I needed to have a meeting
8 with him. He refused that meeting. Instead, he ran
9 through the hallways of KPFA towards the newsroom. I
10 followed him, along with Gene Edwards, who is a member of
11 the national office staff. Mr. Bernstein went into the
12 news control room, which was not on the air at the time
13 but was controlling the studio or the booth next door,
14 which was live on the air.
15 I attempted to talk with Mr. Bernstein to
16 ask him to leave the building. He -- he proceeded to,
17 you know, yell at me, yell at Mr. Edwards. There were --
18 there were other people who started to gather around at
19 this time. Mr. Bernstein was causing quite a commotion.
20 During the course of this, a microphone that was in the
21 control room that we were located in was switched on and
22 our exchange started to go out on the air. That was the
23 moment that I decided that we needed to switch to backup
25 Q. At what point that day did you ask Bernstein to
1 have a meeting with you?
2 A. It was --
3 MS. POTTER: Once again, don't -- don't
4 get into personnel issues.
5 A. It was sometime after he got off the air that
6 day. I don't recall a specific time.
7 Q. Okay. And why did you ask him to meet with
9 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't answer that
11 A. I can't answer that because it has to do with a
12 personnel matter.
13 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. The program that Dennis
14 Bernstein had on the air at that time was called
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. On that day, had Bernstein aired a report of a
18 news conference involving Dr. Berry?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. Okay. And were you unhappy with his airing of
21 the news conference?
22 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't answer
24 MR. SIEGEL: This isn't a personnel
25 question. This is a programming question.
1 MS. POTTER: It is a personnel question.
2 It's dealing with whether or not he was happy or unhappy
3 with an employee's performance in his job.
4 MR. SIEGEL: I beg to differ.
5 MS. POTTER: Well, we can differ but I'm
6 telling the witness not to answer the question --
7 instructing the witness not to answer your question.
8 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Well, what I want to
9 do is take a break and call our judge in Oakland and ask
10 him to overrule your objection.
11 MS. POTTER: Okay.
12 MR. SIEGEL: Okay?
13 (Brief recess.)
14 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Let's go back to July 13th,
15 1999. Were you listening to or monitoring the
16 Flashpoints program that day?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did the Flashpoints program include some
19 coverage of Dr. Berry's press conference?
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. Okay. Did it include some coverage of a Media
22 Alliance press conference?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Did you believe that the coverage of the
25 Media Alliance press conference was contrary to Pacifica
2 A. Could you clarify the question? I don't
3 understand if you mean the press conference or the
4 coverage of the press conference.
5 Q. Okay. Well, did you think the press conference
6 itself violated Pacifica policy?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. That was put on by third persons, the
9 Media Alliance and other people at the Berkeley
10 courthouse several blocks from KPFA, correct?
11 A. I don't know where it took place.
12 Q. Okay. Did you believe that the coverage of it
13 on Flashpoints on July 13th violated Pacifica policy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In what respects?
16 A. Mr. Bernstein's treatment and coverage of that
17 event violated Pacifica policy in that it went beyond
18 reporting the news and went into internal Pacifica
19 management personnel matters.
20 Q. Okay. And was that based on tape he played
21 from the press conference or things that Bernstein
22 himself said on the air?
23 A. Both.
24 Q. Okay. What was it about the tape of the press
25 conference that you believe violated Pacifica policy?
1 A. I don't recall the -- the specifics.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. But the -- again, taken in total,
4 Mr. Bernstein's program that day violated Pacifica policy
5 in that it went beyond just covering the news conference
6 and included information about internal Pacifica
7 management issues, Pacifica personnel issues, and that --
8 that was the violation.
9 Q. Okay. And what -- what policy did this
11 A. The policy that Pacifica has regarding the
12 discussion of internal management issues on the air or
13 internal personnel issues on the air.
14 Q. Okay. How could you -- could you paraphrase
15 that policy?
16 A. Basically, it's referred to in the vernacular
17 as "the dirty laundry rule" internally within Pacifica
18 and it -- Pacifica like many other broadcast outlets
19 doesn't allow the use of its airwaves for, you know,
20 people's personal personnel issues or differences or
21 quibbles with -- with management or internal issues of
22 the organization. It's a bad use of the airtime.
23 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether in the course
24 of the Flashpoints program there was discussion of the
25 termination of Nicole Sawaya's employment?
1 A. Again, I --
2 MS. POTTER: Wait one second.
3 Could you repeat that question, please?
4 MR. SIEGEL: Sure. The question was
5 whether on the Flashpoints program there was discussion
6 of the termination of Nicole Sawaya's employment.
7 MS. POTTER: Okay.
8 A. I don't really recall the specifics.
9 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Do you recall whether
10 there was any discussion of Larry Bensky?
11 A. Yes, I believe so.
12 Q. And what do you recall was said about that?
13 A. I can't recollect the particulars, but there
14 was -- there was material regarding, you know, Mr. Bensky
15 no longer being on the air on the Pacifica network.
16 Q. Okay. And did you take action to terminate
17 that program, the Flashpoints program, on July 13th?
18 A. Could you be more specific?
19 Q. Well, am I correct that the program has a -- a
20 time slot -- or had a time slot on KPFA's airwaves; is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And is it true that on July 13th the program
24 did not air for the complete time slot that was allotted
25 to it?
1 A. That's not correct.
2 Q. It's not correct? Okay. Did anything occur
3 which interrupted the airing of Flashpoints that evening?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Did -- did the program of Flashpoints
6 that evening deviate from what had been planned by its
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Did you take any action to intervene with
10 respect to the Flashpoints that evening?
11 MS. POTTER: With respect to the
12 Flashpoints what?
13 MR. SIEGEL: Program that evening.
14 A. Do you mean during the program?
15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Yes.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was it after the program was completed that you
18 spoke with Bernstein?
19 MS. POTTER: Objection.
20 Don't get into, once again, any personnel
22 A. I can't answer that.
23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.
24 A. It deals with personnel issues.
25 MR. SIEGEL: Can he just tell me whether
1 it was after the program that he spoke with him?
2 MS. POTTER: No. No. I think that's --
3 you -- you are now getting into personnel issues that,
4 you know, the when, the where, the what, the...
5 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Mr. Gantner earlier
6 testified without objection that he had attempted to have
7 a meeting with Dennis and that Dennis stormed out of
8 the -- the room and went into the newsroom.
9 MS. POTTER: Well, I object to your
10 characterization of --
11 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Well, whatever. I
12 mean, the record will speak for itself. But he -- and
13 I'm just trying to pin down the sequence of events, which
14 I don't think violates Dennis Bernstein's personnel
16 MS. POTTER: You can just answer as to
17 when the -- approximately --
18 What was your question, after the --
19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) After the Flashpoints program
20 ended, was it then that you had -- or attempted to have a
21 conversation with Bernstein?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And it was after -- after you attempted
24 to have that conversation that Bernstein went into the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Could you give us an approximation about
3 how much time elapsed between the conclusion of the
4 Flashpoints program and Bernstein's entry into the
6 A. A few minutes.
7 Q. Okay. Less than 10?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall what was on the air at
10 the time?
11 A. Yes. The KPFA evening news.
12 Q. Okay. And do you know who was directing the
13 news at that time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Does the name Eileen Alfandary ring a bell?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you think she was directing the news that
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the director of KPFA
21 evening news invited Dennis Bernstein to go on the air?
22 A. My recollection is no.
23 Q. Okay. What is that recollection based on?
24 A. I followed Mr. Bernstein into the newsroom.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I don't recall anybody asking him, Do you want
2 to be on an open mike?
3 Q. Okay. What happened in the newsroom?
4 A. As I mentioned earlier, I tried to talk with
5 Mr. Bernstein. He was very confrontational.
6 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't -- don't
7 get into anything that would be personnel issues.
8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. And then what happened
9 after you tried to speak with him?
10 A. As I mentioned earlier, that's when a
11 microphone was turned on in the room we were in and our
12 exchange was on the air live. That's when I made the
13 decision to switch to the backup programming.
14 Q. Okay. And did you then convey an instruction
15 to someone to put on the backup programming?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And who -- who was that?
18 A. I asked Gene Edwards, who was with me, to pass
19 that instruction along to Mark Torres.
20 Q. And where was Torres? He was in another studio
21 in the same building?
22 A. I don't know if he was in the studio.
23 Q. Was there another facility outside the KPFA
24 headquarters that was being used as kind of a backup
25 facility or office at that time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. When you went into the newsroom when
3 Mr. Bernstein was in there, did you have security guards
4 with you?
5 A. They were outside of the newsroom.
6 Q. Did they go into the newsroom?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what happened -- what did they do in the
10 A. I asked them to come into the newsroom and to
11 stand behind me. I asked them to help me resolve the
12 issue with -- with Mr. Bernstein to have him leave the
13 newsroom and leave the premises. They -- they informed
14 me that they would do what they could, that it was their
15 policy not to lay hands on anybody. So, they basically
16 tried to work with me into cajoling Mr. Bernstein to
18 Q. And that's when he sat down?
19 A. About that time, yes.
20 Q. And did you leave him there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you started your stint at KPFA, were you
23 given instructions by anyone regarding the rule related
24 to on-the-air discussion of internal management issues?
25 A. Instruction?
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who gave you that instruction?
4 A. Lynn Chadwick.
5 Q. And what did she state to you about that?
6 A. She stated that as the acting manager at the
7 station that I was responsible for enforcing all of the
8 policies that govern Pacifica.
9 Q. Did she make any specific reference to the rule
10 involving the on-the-air discussion of internal
11 management issues?
12 A. Yes, she did.
13 Q. What did she say about that?
14 A. She said again that it was my responsibility to
15 enforce "the dirty laundry rule."
16 Q. How do you decide -- or let me say -- how did
17 you decide at that time where to draw the line between
18 appropriate and inappropriate discussions of Pacifica
19 decisions and management actions?
20 A. You mean that specific afternoon with that
21 specific program?
22 Q. Or just -- okay. We can start there. That's
24 A. I've enforced that policy at various times at
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So, I had experience with it, and the -- the
3 policy had been violated on Flashpoints that day. People
4 who were involved in Pacifica, you know, were discussing
5 in-house personnel issues, management issues, and
6 personality -- personnel differences on the air. And so,
7 I made the decision, you know, the policy had been
8 violated. That was -- that was my finding.
9 Q. Let me just try to articulate the background
10 for my question and see if you can then comment on it
11 more. I mean, you've probably noticed that the media
12 generally is a little more publicly introspective than it
13 was, say, 10 years ago. This week The New York Times ran
14 a very lengthy article kind of critiquing its own
15 coverage of the Wen Ho Lee story. The TV networks have
16 done a lot of soul searching, again publicly, about their
17 calling the Florida primary in the last presidential
18 election. The newspapers have also covered that story.
19 You're familiar with what I'm talking about?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Okay. So, I mean, to some extent it seems like
22 a normal thing for the press to cover itself as one of
23 the issues that the media covers. So, how do you
24 decide -- you know, obviously the -- what's going on with
25 Pacifica these days has gotten -- also gotten a lot of
1 coverage. You probably saw the article in Time magazine
2 last week or the week before, and it's been in The New
3 York Times and other newspapers. So, how do you decide
4 between what you consider to be appropriate discussion of
5 Pacifica policies and decisions and so on versus
7 A. Appropriate discussion is, you know, a public
8 discourse about issues that come before any media
9 organization, Pacifica in particular this time. You
10 cross the line though when it involves personnel issues,
11 personnel actions that have been taken that, you know,
12 may or may not be in litigation, personnel issues that
13 may or may not be going through some sort of grievance
14 procedure or process. It's inappropriate to comment on
15 those sorts of things on the air especially when it
16 involves, you know, the organization that you, you know,
17 are working for.
18 Q. Okay. So, would you say then the line -- the
19 line is drawn between broader policy issues on the one
20 hand and individual personnel issues on the other?
21 A. Yes, I would say that.
22 Q. And I know this is hypothetical. What if
23 someone were to say, Well, we think we should cover the
24 direction taken by KPFT in Houston under Garland
25 Gantner's leadership and interview people who think it's
1 great and interview people who don't think it's great.
2 Would that be an appropriate story?
3 A. If -- if it is another media organization, of
4 course. If it is our own organization, yes, up until the
5 point where it involves, as I mentioned, before specific
6 personnel matters, personnel grievances, you know,
7 internal issues.
8 Q. Okay. Let me press you a little bit on that.
9 A lot of people might think that Amy Goodman is the best
10 known journalist who currently works for Pacifica, and
11 there are some disagreements in the organization over her
12 work. Some people think it's great. Some people think
13 it's not so great.
14 MS. POTTER: Objection.
15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Is that -- is that an
16 appropriate subject of discussion?
17 MS. POTTER: Don't comment on
18 whether there's --
19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) I'm not asking you for your
20 opinion on whether it's great or not.
21 MS. POTTER: -- disagreement in the
22 organization or not.
23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) I mean, I'm asking whether
24 that's a story --
25 MS. POTTER: This is hypothetical, right?
1 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.
2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Is that -- that an appropriate
3 story, Amy Goodman's future in Pacifica?
4 A. It could be, yes.
5 Q. Okay. During the time that you were in
6 Berkeley, did you make any of the decisions about
7 contracts with the companies that provided security at
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. What's your understanding as to who made those
12 A. I don't know who made those decisions.
13 Q. Okay. Without asking you again the names of
14 individuals, did you make any decisions regarding the
15 employment -- continued employment of any staff people at
16 KPFA while you were there?
17 A. Could you rephrase the question or --
18 Q. Yeah. I mean, did you make a decision -- any
19 decisions to fire anybody?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Did you make any decisions to exclude
22 people from the studio -- the station?
23 MS. POTTER: What do you mean "exclude
24 people from the station"?
25 MR. SIEGEL: Say they couldn't come in the
2 MS. POTTER: People. Anybody?
3 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.
4 MS. POTTER: Any people or any people in
5 general, just people in general?
6 MR. SIEGEL: People in general.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Did you make those
9 decisions on your own, or did you seek approval of Lynn
11 A. I informed her of my decision. I did not seek
12 her permission.
13 Q. Okay. During the time that you were acting as,
14 what, the interim station manager -- is that the right
16 A. Acting was the title that was used.
17 Q. Okay. During that period of time, did you
18 consult with anybody on the Pacifica executive committee?
19 A. Could you define "consult"?
20 Q. Have a conversation with.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And who did you have conversations with?
23 A. I spoke with Dr. Berry, Frank Millspaugh, and
24 Micheal Palmer.
25 Q. And were those all together or individual
2 A. All of them were individual.
3 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of your
4 conversations with Dr. Berry?
5 A. Dr. Berry happened to be there in the Bay Area
6 at the time I arrived. We saw each other socially at
7 lunch and, you know, she was -- basically just thanked me
8 for coming out, asked how I was doing, asked how my
9 family was. We didn't talk a lot about the specifics of
10 why I was there.
11 Q. Okay. Did she give you any direction as to the
12 tasks that you should undertake?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. What were the circumstances of your
15 having conversations with Frank Millspaugh during this
17 A. I can't be sure of the specific date, but one
18 day while I was there he -- he called me to just to see
19 how I was doing.
20 Q. Kind of a friendly call?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To give you support, a sense of personal
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Was that one or more than one
2 A. My best recollection is that we spoke on the
3 phone once.
4 Q. Okay. And how about with Micheal Palmer, how
5 many times did you speak with him?
6 A. I can't say for sure, but I think once.
7 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of that
9 A. Pretty much the same as it was with
10 Mr. Millspaugh. He had called to see how I was doing
11 and, you know, just ask what's going on.
12 Q. Okay. You and Mr. Palmer friendly on a
13 personal basis?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. During the time that you were acting
16 station manager at KPFA, who was responsible for making
17 decisions regarding items that would be paid for out of
18 Pacifica resources with respect to the situation in
20 A. I can't say for sure. I know it wasn't me.
21 Q. Okay. Who was -- do you know who was
22 overseeing the use of those funds?
23 A. Lynn Chadwick.
24 Q. Okay. Were you aware that at one point there
25 was an office set up for Pacifica
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. During the time that you were in
3 Berkeley, where did you live?
4 A. A hotel in downtown Oakland.
5 Q. The Marriott?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was Lynn Chadwick living there at the time
8 also? I'm not suggesting in the same room or anything
9 but in the hotel.
10 A. I'm -- all I can say, I know for a fact she
11 spent one night there.
12 Q. Okay. Were there other reasons beyond
13 the immediate incident with Dennis Bernstein that you
14 described on July 13th for switching off the normal KPFA
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What were -- what were those reasons?
18 A. They -- as I mentioned earlier, the station
19 again had been overrun by people who had been protesting
20 outside the station.
21 Q. Okay. And so, what was there about that that
22 made you want to switch off the programming or change the
24 A. The people had come into the station -- or were
25 let into the station and were basically attempting to
1 take over the station. They were going into offices,
2 going into the studios. This was all happening at the
3 same time that I was trying to talk with Mr. Bernstein.
4 It was my decision that in order to safeguard the
5 property and the broadcast license that it was in the
6 best interest to switch to that backup programming.
7 Q. Okay. Well, was it your view that in order to
8 safeguard the premises you had to go to the backup
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that as long as -- as long as people were
12 coming in and out of the building to do programming, that
13 it would be impossible to secure the premises?
14 A. I'm not clear on your question.
15 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. Well, did you think
16 there was kind of a physical inconsistency between trying
17 to carry on the normal programming and keeping the
18 building secure?
19 A. At that particular time, yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did you have a view as to how long
21 it would be necessary to go on -- go on with the backup
22 programming in order to keep the premises secure?
23 A. At that time, I did not know how long it would
25 Q. Okay. Were you involved at all in the decision
1 to allow the KPFA and staff -- staff and volunteers to
2 resume, quote, unquote, "normal programming"?
3 MS. POTTER: Would you repeat that?
4 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah. I was asking
5 Mr. Gantner whether he was involved in the decision that
6 was made a little later that summer to allow the KPFA
7 staff and volunteers to resume normal programming.
8 A. No, I was not involved in that decision.
9 MR. SIEGEL: That's it. Thank you.
10 MS. POTTER: Okay. I have no questions.
11 (Deposition concluded at 11:43 a.m.)
1 THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
2 DAVID ADELSON, ET AL *
3 VS. *
* CAUSE NO. 814461-0
4 PACIFICA FOUNDATION, *
A CALIFORNIA NONPROFIT *
5 CORPORATION, ET AL *
6 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION TO THE
DEPOSITION OF GARLAND GANTNER
7 TAKEN ON FEBRUARY 7, 2001
8 I, MYLINDA TUBBS FAIRCLOTH, Certified Shorthand
Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to
9 the following:
That the witness, GARLAND GANTNER, was duly sworn by
10 the officer and that the transcript of the oral
deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the
That the deposition transcript was made available on
12 February 12, 2001 to the attorney for the Defendants for
examination, signature, and return to Elite Reporting
13 Service, Inc., by March 14, 2001;
That pursuant to information given to the deposition
14 officer at the time said testimony was taken, the
following includes all parties of record:
15 Dan Siegel, Attorney for Plaintiffs;
Kathy C. Potter, Attorney for Defendants.
16 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,
related to, nor employed by any of the parties in the
17 action in which this proceeding was taken, and further
that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the
18 outcome of this action.
Further certification requirements pursuant to will
19 be certified to after they have occurred.
Sworn to by me this 9th day of February, 2001.
21 MYLINDA TUBBS FAIRCLOTH, CSR
Certification No. 2896
22 Expiration Date: 12-31-02
23 ELITE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.
3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110
24 Houston, Texas 77027
1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE
2 PAGE/LINE CHANGE REASON
24 I, GARLAND GANTNER, have read the foregoing
25 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is
1 true and correct, except as noted above.
5 GARLAND GANTNER
8 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
10 COUNTY OF _________)
13 Before me __________________ (name of officer) on
14 this day personally appeared __________________, known to
15 me or proved to me to be the person whose name is
16 subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged
17 to me that he executed the same for the purposes and
18 consideration therein expressed.
20 (Seal) Given under my hand and seal of
21 office this _____ day of _____________, ______.
24 Notary Public in and for the State of Texas
1 REPORTING FIRM'S FURTHER CERTIFICATION
2 The original deposition transcript or Changes and
3 Signature page was/was not returned to the deposition
4 officer on ______________;
5 If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page
6 contains any changes and the reasons therefor;
7 If returned, the original deposition transcription
8 was delivered to ___________________ for safekeeping on
10 That a copy of this certificate was served on all
11 parties shown herein.
12 Witness my hand this __________ day of
13 ______________, ________.
MYLINDA TUBBS FAIRCLOTH, CSR
17 Certification No. 2896
Expiration Date: 12-31-02
ELITE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.
19 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110
Houston, Texas 77027
20 (7l3) 623-4434