Deposition of Garland Ganter







3 VS. )

) CAUSE NO. 814461-0










12 FEBRUARY 7, 2001










21 duly sworn by me at the instance of the Plaintiffs, taken

in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 7th day of

22 February, 2001, from 10:02 a.m. to 11:42 a.m., before

Mylinda Tubbs Faircloth, Certified Shorthand Reporter

23 No. 2896 in and for the State of Texas, via machine

shorthand, at the offices of Elite Reporting Service,

24 Inc., 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110, Houston, Texas 77027,

pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the

25 provisions stated on the record.


1 A P P E A R A N C E S




499 14TH STREET, SUITE 220

4 OAKLAND, CA 94612




1227 25TH STREET N.W.

7 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20037

























4 Examination by Mr. Siegel....................4

5 Reporter's Pre-signature Certificate.............68

6 Witness's Signature Page/Corrections.............69

7 Reporter's Post-signature Certificate............71



10 326 Packing List, Telos Systems 37

















1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 FEBRUARY 7, 2001


4 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:



7 Q. Would you state your full name, please.

8 A. Garland Patrick Gantner.

9 Q. Okay. And what is your address? You can give

10 a work address.

11 MS. POTTER: Same -- okay.

12 A. It's 1419 Lovett Boulevard, Houston, Texas

13 77006.

14 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And that's for -- that's the

15 address of KPFT?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Okay. What is your date of birth?

18 A. February 3rd, 1964.

19 MS. POTTER: You just had a birthday.

20 Happy birthday.

21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Have you ever had your

22 deposition taken before?

23 A. No, I have not.

24 Q. Okay. Well, let me explain the process to you

25 a little bit. I'm sure Ms. Potter has, as well. My name


1 is Dan Siegel. I represent the plaintiffs in a lawsuit

2 called Adelson versus Pacifica -- Pacifica Foundation.

3 And the purpose of this deposition this morning is for me

4 to find out what you know about things that I believe are

5 relevant to the lawsuit. You may disagree as to whether

6 they're relevant or not, but basically it's my task here

7 to find out what you know about certain things.

8 And I'm going to do my best to ask

9 questions that are clear and straightforward, no tricks

10 involved. And if you answer them, I will assume the

11 question was clear and that you answered it in a

12 responsive way. So, my first request to you is to let me

13 know if my question is unclear, and I'll try to rephrase

14 it. Is that okay with you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. There are a couple of rules about

17 depositions. As you can see, everything is being taken

18 verbatim. So, we have to speak clearly and avoid, first

19 of all, interrupting each other. Because if we interrupt

20 each other, the court reporter is going to have a hard

21 time taking down the transcript. And sometimes, because

22 I'm slow, you may anticipate the end of my question. But

23 please wait until I finish until you answer. Is that all

24 right?

25 A. That's fine.


1 Q. Okay. And you're doing a good job on this, but

2 sometimes people forget they're in a deposition and do

3 what we all do in casual conversation. We make gestures

4 with our hands or use sounds like "uh-huh" or "huh-uh,"

5 which don't come out very clearly on the record. So, we

6 do need to converse in the English language. Is that

7 okay?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. I guarantee we'll get you out in time

10 for lunch. But, again, the process is not to sort of,

11 well, wipe you out or tire you out. So, if you need a

12 break for any purpose, you can just say, I need a break

13 or take a walk or speak with counsel or whatever you need

14 to do.

15 During the course of the deposition,

16 Ms. Potter may raise objections, just like lawyers do in

17 court. But there's no judge here to rule on the

18 objections, and so the purpose of the objection is simply

19 to put it on the record for some future purpose. But you

20 will still have to answer the questions. The exception

21 for that is if she believes that one of my questions

22 invade a privilege, such as the attorney-client

23 privilege, and then she will not only object but will

24 instruct you not to answer. Do you understand that part

25 of the process?


1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Okay. At the conclusion of the deposition --

3 excuse me -- the -- the court reporter will prepare a

4 transcript of it and will make it available to you

5 through your attorney. Then you'll have an opportunity

6 to review it, to make corrections if there are

7 corrections that need to be made, or even to change the

8 substance of your answers if upon reflection you want to

9 change one of your answers.

10 But I need to advise you that in the event

11 that the deposition is later used during the trial of

12 this case or in pretrial motions and you have made

13 changes, I would have the right to comment on those

14 changes. Do you understand that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have any questions today about

17 the process?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Is there any reason why you can't give

20 your best testimony today, such as fatigue or illness or

21 use of medication?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. All right. So, then we'll begin. Can

24 you give me your educational background, beginning with

25 high school graduation, please?


1 A. Attended high school here in the Houston area,

2 Clear Creek High School, and then attended the University

3 of Houston where I studied radio/television and history.

4 Q. Okay. And did you graduate from the University

5 of Houston?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. When did you attend?

8 A. Early through mid-1980s.

9 Q. Okay. And how many units did you accumulate?

10 A. My best recollection is a little over a hundred

11 hours.

12 Q. Okay. And during the time that you were at the

13 University of Houston, did you work at all in the radio

14 or communications industry?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And what did you do?

17 A. I worked at KRBE radio in the newsroom. Also

18 did volunteer work at KACC, a community college station.

19 Q. Is KRBE a commercial station here in Houston?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And what kind of station is it?

22 A. At the time I worked there, it was a music and

23 news station.

24 Q. Okay. AM or PM -- AM or FM? PM, yeah.

25 A. FM.


1 Q. And was that a paid position that you held

2 there?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. Okay. And what was your title?

5 A. I had two different titles. The -- my first

6 position there was a board operator. Second position was

7 editorial assistant.

8 Q. Okay. And what did you do professionally after

9 you left KRBR [sic]?

10 A. I did some temporary and vacation relief work

11 over the summer at a couple of other radio stations here

12 in Houston and then went to work at KPFT.

13 Q. Okay. And when did you go to work at KPFT?

14 A. March of 1986.

15 Q. Okay. And what was your position there?

16 A. I was hired as news director.

17 Q. Okay. And what were your functions as news

18 director?

19 A. I was in charge of producing the daily newscast

20 and also overseeing public affairs programming on the

21 station.

22 Q. And at that time, how long was the daily

23 newscast?

24 A. The locally produced segment was a half hour.

25 Q. Okay. Were there also nationally produced


1 segments of the news?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what were they?

4 A. Pacific and network news.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And we also carried segments from the BBC world

7 service.

8 Q. Okay. And then what was the local programming

9 that you were in charge of at that time?

10 A. The locally produced public affairs programs.

11 Q. And what were they?

12 A. There was a variety of them.

13 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what they were?

14 A. There was a local daily talk show that covered

15 a lot of different topics. I don't recall particular

16 program titles.

17 Q. Uh-huh.

18 A. That was 15 years ago. But there were other

19 talk shows, and there were some public affairs shows

20 dealing with specific issues.

21 Q. Such as?

22 A. Again, I don't recall particulars, but I know

23 we had a program that talked about African American

24 issues here in Houston. There was also another program

25 that dealt with the Hispanic community here in Houston.


1 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many hours a day KPFT

2 broadcasted in 1986?

3 A. The station was a 24-hour operation.

4 Q. And has it always been since then?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Again, going back to '86, and I realize your

7 memory may not be perfect on this, but do you have a -- a

8 recollection of in a 24-hour period the number of hours

9 devoted to public affairs, news, and talk as compared

10 with the number of hours devoted to music and

11 entertainment?

12 A. My best recollection is about -- probably about

13 five hours a day were spoken word.

14 Q. Uh-huh. And those would -- that would be news

15 and public affairs programming --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- and -- as well as particular programs that

18 dealt with ethnic issues and things like that?

19 A. I don't understand the question real clear.

20 Q. Oh, okay. I mean, I just want to be sure

21 what -- what's in this universe of five hours. You

22 mentioned news and publish affairs, and my question was

23 whether that also included the ethnic programming that

24 you mentioned.

25 A. Not necessarily, no.


1 Q. Because some of the ethnic programming was

2 music?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Was there -- was some of the programming

5 in languages other than English at that time?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. What languages?

8 A. Again, my best recollection, Spanish,

9 Vietnamese, and Hindi.

10 Q. Okay. How long did you serve as news director?

11 A. About five years.

12 Q. So, until about 1991?

13 A. Actually, it would have been about 1990.

14 Q. Okay. During that period of March of '86

15 through 1990, did your job responsibilities change?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. So, during that time, you -- you were

18 basically in charge of the news, the daily news program,

19 public affairs programming?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Okay. And during that period of time, did the

22 programming at KPFT change in any substantial way from

23 the way you've described it in terms of the mix between

24 music and spoken word and other kinds of things that were

25 discussed?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. Who was the station manager when you

3 started out in March of '86?

4 A. Her name was Jean Palmquist.

5 Q. Okay. And did she remain as station manager

6 throughout the time that you were news director?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What happened in 1990 in terms of a change in

9 your job title or responsibilities?

10 A. That was the time when I became program

11 director of the station.

12 Q. Okay. What were your duties as program

13 director?

14 A. As program director, I was responsible for the

15 overall on-air sound of the station.

16 Q. Okay. Could you amplify that a little bit?

17 A. I oversaw program staff and volunteers,

18 arranged to make sure that shifts were covered, helped

19 schedule new programs, recruit new programmers. It also

20 involved training.

21 Q. Okay. And who promoted you to the position of

22 program director?

23 A. I applied for the position and was hired by

24 Ms. Palmquist.

25 Q. Okay. Now, as program director, did you have


1 the authority to make changes in the programs that were

2 on the air?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So, bring in new programs as well as cutting

5 programs that existed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. How long did you remain as program

8 director?

9 A. A little bit less than five years.

10 Q. Okay. So, until '94 or '95 sometime?

11 A. 1994.

12 Q. Okay. And during that time, did you make

13 changes in the programming of KPFT?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. What kind of changes did you make?

16 A. Mostly changes in new personnel. Sometimes

17 people would leave, and I'd have to find new people, new

18 programs.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. We also did some program changes during the --

21 during the daytime period during the week.

22 Q. Okay. What sorts of changes were they?

23 A. We did a little bit of basically moving

24 programs around --

25 Q. Uh-huh.


1 A. -- grouping -- grouping music programs together

2 at the same time of day and grouping public affairs

3 programs together at the same time of day.

4 Q. Okay. Did there continue to be a locally

5 produced news program while you were program director?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Who was the news director when you

8 became -- who -- let me rephrase that.

9 Who became news director when you became

10 program director?

11 A. A gentleman by the name of Shaun Gilson.

12 Q. There's a word that people use in radio, and

13 maybe you could help me remember it, which refers to the

14 overall approach or strategy or sound of a radio station.

15 Do you know what I'm talking about? Is it format? Is

16 that the word?

17 A. Some -- some people use that term.

18 Q. Okay. Is there another term that makes more

19 sense?

20 MS. POTTER: That makes more sense in

21 terms of what?

22 MR. SIEGEL: Well, just in terms of a word

23 that we could both use to describe the overall --

24 MS. POTTER: Look and feel?

25 MR. SIEGEL: -- programming approach of a


1 radio station.

2 A. Some people refer to it as just the sound of a

3 station.

4 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. During the time that you

5 were program director, is there a -- a term that would

6 describe the format or sound of KPFT?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what is that?

9 A. Eclectic.

10 Q. Eclectic. Okay. Is that a term that would

11 still apply to KPFT?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And is that a term that would, say, in

14 the business be applied to the Pacifica network

15 generally?

16 A. I couldn't speak for the network generally but

17 for KPFT, yes.

18 Q. I mean, we hear terms like community sponsored

19 or public affairs oriented. Are those also terms that

20 would apply to KPFT?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So, what did you do after you became --

23 or in 1994 what change or shift did you make from being

24 program director?

25 A. In 1994, I became station general manager.


1 Q. Okay. And that's the position that you hold

2 today?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And you've held it since 1994?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. How did you become station general

7 manager?

8 A. I applied for the position.

9 Q. All right. And had -- did you replace Jean

10 Palmquist?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Had someone else become station manager after

13 her?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And who is that?

16 A. Mary Helen Merzbacher.

17 Q. Mary Helen?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And how do you spell that last name?

20 A. I believe it's M-E-R-Z-B-A-C-H-E-R.

21 Q. Okay. And during what period of time did she

22 serve as station general manager?

23 A. She served as general manager from the time

24 Ms. Palmquist left until 1992.

25 Q. Okay. When did Ms. Palmquist leave?


1 A. Late 1989 or early 1990.

2 Q. Okay. And did someone serve as station manager

3 after Mary Helen Merzbacher left?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who is that?

6 A. Barry Forbes.

7 Q. Okay. Did he serve until the time you took

8 over?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And who was it who appointed you station

11 manager?

12 A. David Salniker.

13 Q. Okay. And what was his position at the time?

14 A. He was executive director of Pacifica

15 Foundation.

16 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that under

17 Pacifica's procedures it's the executive director who

18 appoints the station managers?

19 MS. POTTER: You mean hires the station

20 managers?

21 MR. SIEGEL: Hires, appoints, yeah.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Now, when you became

24 station general manager, did you take any steps to alter

25 the format or sound of KPFT?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what did you do?

3 A. After planning and consultation, we made the

4 decision -- I made the decision after consultation to

5 move the station towards more block programming.

6 Q. Okay. And what do you mean by that term?

7 A. Basically, a continuation of what we had done

8 earlier of grouping similar programs together.

9 Q. Uh-huh.

10 A. Even though we had done some of that a few

11 years before, there were still other parts of the

12 schedule where there were, you know, various programs on

13 various days of the week, various times of day. And

14 basically, we reorganized a lot of that programming. The

15 final result being that most of the music programming was

16 in one large block. Most of the news and public affairs

17 programming was in one large block.

18 Q. Okay. Is that the way it is today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Why did you make that kind of change?

21 A. To make the station more successful, more

22 listenable, to draw a larger number of people to the

23 station.

24 Q. And why did you think that doing this -- excuse

25 me -- block programming would make the station more


1 successful in the ways that you've described?

2 A. The way people use radio, they like to be able

3 to have some idea of what's going to be there when they

4 turn their radio on.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. With KPFT for many years, that wasn't the case.

7 And we knew that if we did block programming, that people

8 would find their station more accessible, listen more

9 often.

10 Q. Okay. Was it your experience that -- I don't

11 know -- the average listener did not consult the folio to

12 determine what was going on in a particular half hour or

13 hour time slot?

14 A. Not here in Houston, no.

15 Q. Did -- did Houston have a folio?

16 A. Do you mean a program guide?

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, I've been listening to KPFT the

20 last couple of days since I've been in town. Can you

21 give me a -- a sense of how these blocks work at this

22 point in terms of times of days when there's news and

23 public affairs on and when there's music on?

24 A. There's a morning music block from 6:00 to 8:00

25 a.m. Then there is a news and public affairs block from


1 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m., a music block from 10:00 a.m. to

2 6:30 p.m., a news and information block from 6:30 p.m. to

3 10:00 p.m., and then music overnight.

4 Q. Okay. So, that looks like about five and a

5 half hours a day of news and public affairs programming?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. That doesn't sound like a change from

8 the division that existed in terms of the overall time as

9 from when you became news director; is that right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Okay. Is the schedule different on weekends?

12 A. The schedule on weekends has pretty much

13 remained the same the whole time, and that's mostly

14 music.

15 Q. I see. Okay. Has the content or, you know,

16 the content of the news and public affairs blocks changed

17 during the time that you've been station general manager?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How is that?

20 A. Since I've become general manager, we've added

21 "Democracy Now," a nationally produced daily show.

22 Q. Uh-huh.

23 A. We have added a show dealing with technology

24 issues, and we also have a program dealing with the

25 African Diaspora here in Houston, African immigrants as


1 opposed to African Americans?

2 Q. Has there been a change in terms of the locally

3 produced news?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What's -- what's that change?

6 A. We do not at this time produce any locally --

7 locally produced news.

8 Q. Okay. And when did that change go into effect?

9 A. My best recollection, late 1995.

10 Q. And why was that decision made?

11 A. At the time, it was a budgetary decision.

12 Q. Okay. And now?

13 A. Now, we actually have a position for news

14 director posted. We have not made the hire yet.

15 Q. And is it your intention to have the news

16 director begin producing a local news program?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And when do you think that will occur?

19 A. My plan is to make that hire by the spring.

20 Q. Okay. And start a local news program by when?

21 A. I can't say for sure but sometime soon after

22 that.

23 Q. Okay. Have there also been changes in terms of

24 non-English language programming?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. What change has that been?

2 A. Over the years, we don't do foreign language

3 programming.

4 Q. Okay. And why is that?

5 A. We found that a lot of the foreign language

6 programming limited listener access to the station.

7 Q. Okay. How do you -- how do you determine

8 listener access?

9 A. I'm not sure I understand the question.

10 Q. Okay. How do you measure it or gauge it?

11 A. There's several different ways. We depend on

12 anecdotal information through phone calls and letters --

13 Q. Uh-huh.

14 A. -- listener comments. We also listen to the

15 local advisory board. That's one of the roles that they

16 fill.

17 Q. Uh-huh.

18 A. And we also utilize scientific audience data.

19 Q. Arbitron ratings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Has the listenership of KPFT changed in the

22 last five years in terms of numbers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How has it changed?

25 A. The audience has more than doubled.


1 Q. Okay. From what to what?

2 A. I don't recall the specifics --

3 Q. Uh-huh.

4 A. -- but it went from a weekly audience of

5 approximately 60,000 to a weekly audience of

6 approximately 140,000.

7 Q. Okay. How is your fund-raising doing?

8 A. It's doing well.

9 Q. Listening again last night, I guess, shortly

10 after whatever it was -- this was at 6:30 or 7:30 -- you

11 ended the fund drive last night?

12 A. Yes, we did.

13 Q. And did you meet the goals?

14 A. We exceeded the goals.

15 Q. So, pledges kept coming in after the drive went

16 off the air?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Because I think the last thing, I heard you

19 were still $300 or something away.

20 A. Near the end of the drive, yes.

21 Q. Okay. So, how much did you raise this year?

22 A. I don't know the exact figure for this year.

23 Q. What was the goal?

24 A. Oh, you mean for the membership drive that was

25 just completed?


1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. The goal was 240,000.

3 Q. And you more than exceeded that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is that an increase over the last five

6 years?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. By how much?

9 A. Almost double.

10 Q. Okay. Is there a local advisory board for

11 KPFT?

12 A. Yes, there is.

13 Q. And how many members does that have?

14 A. Currently, eight.

15 Q. Okay. Has -- has the number of members of the

16 local advisory board grown over the last several years?

17 A. It's fluctuated both ways.

18 Q. What's the largest number that you've had?

19 A. I can't recall a particular.

20 Q. Okay. Can you give me an approximation?

21 A. 12.

22 Q. Okay. Are you attempting to increase the

23 membership of the LAB?

24 A. The advisory board is, yes.

25 Q. Okay. And what are they doing about that?


1 A. They do have a recruitment committee, and

2 they're currently engaged in trying to recruit new

3 members.

4 Q. Okay. Some people around the country have made

5 the assertion or accusation that KPFT has veered away

6 from Pacifica's programming goals and philosophy. Have

7 you heard that?

8 A. Yes, I've heard that.

9 Q. What is your response to that?

10 A. I disagree. I think they're wrong.

11 Q. Okay. And, again, if you could go into more

12 detail.

13 A. KPFT still fulfills the Pacifica mission. We

14 have programming that addresses a lot of issues that

15 aren't addressed in any other media here in Houston, and

16 our -- our programming still reflects the cultural

17 diversity of the Houston area.

18 Q. Okay. Do you think the sound has improved

19 during the time that you've been station manager?

20 A. Yes, it has.

21 Q. In what respects?

22 A. Technically, the station sounds better.

23 Q. Uh-huh.

24 A. Content wise, we're doing a much better job at

25 presenting the issues that we present.


1 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the -- the

2 strategic plan document that was developed in the mid

3 '90s --

4 MS. POTTER: Objection, no foundation.

5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) -- by Pacifica?

6 MS. POTTER: You can answer.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Has the development of KPFT

9 under your leadership in your opinion been consistent

10 with that strategic plan?

11 MS. POTTER: Consistent in what way?

12 MR. SIEGEL: Consistent, in accordance

13 with.

14 MS. POTTER: I mean a strategic plan can

15 encompass a lot of different things. Is there one

16 specific part of the strategic plan that you're talking

17 about?

18 MR. SIEGEL: Sure, the part that has to do

19 with the programming. I'm not talking about the

20 fund-raising or leadership. I'm talking about the

21 programming.

22 MS. POTTER: Okay.

23 A. Somewhat, yes.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you think that -- let me see

25 how can I ask this. Do you think that -- has the


1 strategic plan been an important blueprint for you as

2 you've developed your leadership of the station, or has

3 it kind of been incidental to your strategy for improving

4 the format and sound of KPFT?

5 A. It's served as a general guide --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- but not specific.

8 Q. Okay. Can you think of ways in which the

9 development of KPFT under your leadership has been

10 different than the strategies outlined in the strategic

11 plan?

12 A. I -- I can't -- I can't speak to any specifics

13 because each station basically sort of runs itself within

14 general parameters.

15 Q. Okay. When I interviewed Dr. Berry a couple of

16 weeks ago, she said that from her point of view that the

17 goal was to both increase the reach of Pacifica's

18 progressive voice, as well as diversifying its listener

19 base. Those two things are not inconsistent, but they're

20 perhaps different aspects of a vision. Do you believe

21 that KPFT has done both of those things?

22 MS. POTTER: Objection.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Clearly, from what you've said,

25 the listenership has -- has grown a lot. Has the


1 listenership diversified?

2 A. Again, I can't recall specifics but generally,

3 yes.

4 Q. Okay. And does -- do the Arbitron or other

5 research data confirm that?

6 A. Again, without being able to recall specifics,

7 generally, yes.

8 Q. Okay. But my sense -- and I'm far from being

9 an expert on Houston. But just from being around here a

10 few days, this seems like a very diverse community in

11 terms of there are lots of Caucasian people, there are

12 lots of African Americans, there are lots of Hispanics, a

13 lot of Asians. Is that a fair assessment, or am I seeing

14 too narrow a slice?

15 A. Generally, yes.

16 Q. Okay. And in terms of the major racial and

17 ethnic groups, are you doing things to appeal to each of

18 them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what does your LAB look like in terms of

21 the diversity of its membership.

22 A. Currently, there are six Caucasians, one

23 African American, and one Hispanic.

24 Q. Okay. And what sort of things are you doing to

25 increase listenership in the African American community?


1 A. A lot of our cultural programming is designed

2 to appeal to that community. And as I mentioned earlier,

3 we, you know, have some new -- relatively new public

4 affairs programming that addresses issues for that

5 community.

6 Q. Okay. How about the Hispanic community?

7 A. Again, there is some programming designed to

8 appeal to that community, and topics of concern to that

9 community are covered in our public affairs shows.

10 Q. When you say "programming," is -- like musical

11 programming?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. How about the Asian community?

14 A. We do not have any programming geared

15 specifically for the Asian community.

16 Q. Okay. Is that something you plan to look at or

17 are thinking about?

18 A. I really can't say.

19 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me change the topic and

20 talk about Berkeley. In 1999, you -- you went to

21 Berkeley for a period of time, right?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Okay. How did that occur?

24 A. My supervisor, Lynn Chadwick, called and asked

25 if I could come to Berkeley for an undetermined amount of


1 time to help manage KPFA.

2 Q. And when did she do that?

3 A. July of that year.

4 Q. Okay. And what did you say?

5 A. I'm sorry. What did she say?

6 Q. What did you say?

7 A. I said yes, that I would go.

8 Q. Okay. And what did she say as to why she was

9 asking you to do this?

10 A. She told me that she needed somebody to help

11 manage KPFA. They did not have a general manager at the

12 time.

13 Q. Okay. And what had happened to the general

14 manager?

15 A. They -- they didn't have a general manager at

16 KPFA.

17 Q. Okay. Well, there had been a general manager,

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It was Nicole Sawaya?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And at a certain point prior to July, she was

23 no longer the general manager; is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Okay. And there was a gap, wasn't there,


1 between Sawaya's leaving and Chadwick's call to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what's your understanding as to who was

4 running the station during that period of time?

5 A. I -- I don't know. I can't answer that.

6 Q. Okay. When you got there, did you see that

7 someone was running the station before you got there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Did Lynn Chadwick indicate why it was

10 that she wanted you to take on the situation in Berkeley?

11 A. What she told me was that there was not a

12 general manager in place at KPFA and that they needed

13 someone who could help manage some of the day-to-day

14 operations of the station.

15 Q. Okay. But did she say why you versus someone

16 who was not engaged in the business of running KPFT in

17 Houston at the time?

18 A. No. She didn't say anything one way or the

19 other on that.

20 Q. Okay. So, how long -- how much time elapsed

21 between Lynn Chadwick's call to you and your arrival in

22 Berkeley?

23 A. A few days.

24 Q. Just a few?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. Okay. What kind of arrangements did you have

2 to take to leave Houston?

3 MS. POTTER: Objection, relevancy.

4 A. Could you repeat the question?

5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. I mean, what did you

6 have to do to get yourself ready to leave? I take it

7 this -- this was not expected. Am I correct about that?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 MS. POTTER: You're not asking him what he

10 personally had to do to -- with his life to go to

11 Berkeley, are you?

12 MR. SIEGEL: Well, yeah, I am.

13 MS. POTTER: Objection.

14 MR. SIEGEL: But I can break it up.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) What did you have to do in

16 order to ensure that the station continued to operate in

17 your absence?

18 A. I had and have complete confidence in the staff

19 at KPFT to operate the station for a short period of time

20 in my absence, so there was no major problem for me to

21 leave.

22 Q. Who was in charge at the station while you were

23 gone?

24 A. The -- the management team of the station.

25 Q. Okay. Who are they?


1 A. That would be the program director and the

2 development director.

3 Q. Okay. Who is the program director?

4 A. At that time, it was Edmundo Resendez.

5 Q. Okay. And the development director?

6 A. Molly O'Brien.

7 Q. Okay. Molly O'Brien is your wife, correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Okay. And how did you get to the Bay Area?

10 Drive? Fly?

11 A. I flew.

12 Q. Okay. When did you first come -- or first

13 arrive at KPFA?

14 A. On a Tuesday afternoon. I don't recall a

15 specific date. Lynn Chadwick and I called a staff

16 meeting at KPFA, at which time she introduced me to the

17 staff and that I would be helping to manage the station.

18 Q. Okay. Well, was that before or after July 4th?

19 A. After.

20 Q. How many days was that before the incident

21 where Dennis Bernstein was taken off the air?

22 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't get into

23 any personnel issues.

24 MR. SIEGEL: This is not a personnel

25 issue.


1 A. Same day.

2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Same day. Okay. So, that

3 would have been July 13th, 1999?

4 A. I don't recall the specific date.

5 Q. All right. Do you recall that at some point

6 after you took over there was a -- I don't know exactly

7 what you call the item -- a transmitter rerouting device

8 of some sort?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Well, at some point after you arrived in

11 Berkeley, there were changes made in the programming, at

12 least temporarily, correct?

13 A. Temporarily, yes.

14 Q. Okay. There was a decision made to -- to play

15 various tapes of music and interviews that -- from the

16 Pacifica archives.

17 MS. POTTER: Objection.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you recall that?

19 MS. POTTER: No foundation.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And when was that decision

22 made?

23 A. I -- I don't recall the specifics, but I

24 made -- I made the decision to air those tapes.

25 Q. Okay. And isn't it true that the decision was


1 made prior to your arrival in Berkeley?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, isn't it true that the -- at that time

4 Pacifica's archives were housed in Los Angeles. Am I

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that -- the decision you made to

8 temporarily change the programming of KPFA meant that you

9 were going to use materials from the archives?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And weren't those materials or at least some of

12 those materials on hand when you arrived in Berkeley?

13 A. A very small number of tapes were at KPFA.

14 Q. Okay. And were they -- did you then obtain

15 more from the archives?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What was done to get more of the archival

18 material on the air at KPFA?

19 A. While I was there, we only aired the few tapes

20 that were there.

21 Q. Okay. Were other things done to -- besides

22 airing those tapes to change the programming at KPFA?

23 A. I drew from the KPFA music library.

24 Q. Okay. Were things done electronically to allow

25 KPFA to access other programming materials?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was done?

3 A. Again, I don't recall the technical specifics.

4 But for a short period of time, programming that was

5 produced here in Houston was piped into KPFA.

6 Q. Okay. And was that done through the integrated

7 services digital network?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. I'm sorry. I've got

10 just one copy of this document with me, but let me have

11 marked as whatever our next in order is --


13 MR. SIEGEL: -- 326 a document entitled

14 Telos Systems Packing List, please.

15 (Brief pause.)

16 (Exhibit No. 326 was marked.)

17 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Mr. Gantner, I'm showing you

18 Exhibit 326. Do you recognize this document?

19 A. It looks like a receipt or shipping invoice.

20 Q. Okay. Have you seen this before?

21 A. I can't say specifically, no.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. I can't say for sure.

24 Q. Do you know what the Crouse-Kimzey Company is?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. What is that?

2 A. They are a broadcast equipment company,

3 supplier.

4 Q. In Texas?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it a company that you do business with?

7 A. I -- I can't say for sure without knowing for

8 sure.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know who Keith Hubbard is?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. All right. Well, this document appears

12 to be dated or at least it has an order date of June

13 29th, 1999. Do you see that up in --

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. -- the left side?

16 A. Yes, I see that.

17 Q. And then at the bottom it says shipped -- looks

18 like June 29th, 1999, although it's hard to read. But

19 then under estimated shipping date, again it seems to

20 indicate June 29th, 1999. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, I see that.

22 Q. And then in the "Ship to," it says, "Pacifica,

23 Hold at Federal Express, 1221 Broadway" and a PO number,

24 "Garland G."

25 A. Yes, I see that.


1 Q. Is that you?

2 A. I presume. I can't say for sure it is.

3 Q. Okay. And the product name is a Zephyr-9200,

4 ISDN, space, SU. Do you know what that is?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What is that?

7 A. That is a ISDN audio codec.

8 Q. Okay. So, what's that?

9 A. It's a piece of equipment that can be used to

10 hook two points up via ISDN telephone line.

11 Q. Okay. So, was this piece of equipment used to

12 hook up the KPFA transmitter with the facilities of KPFT

13 in Houston?

14 A. It could be.

15 Q. Was it?

16 A. An ISDN was installed at the KPFA transmitter

17 while I was there in July.

18 Q. Okay. And it was used to connect the KPFA

19 transmitter with KPFT facilities?

20 A. For a period of time, yes.

21 Q. Okay. I guess what I want to focus in on here

22 is the -- is the timing. Assuming that the date here is

23 accurate, somebody thought they should -- could ship

24 things to you in Oakland on June 29th, which is two weeks

25 before you arrived?


1 MS. POTTER: Objection. He said he didn't

2 know if that was him.

3 MR. SIEGEL: Okay.

4 A. (By Mr. Siegel) I don't know, you know, who or

5 what took place regarding, you know, issues before I was

6 called and asked to go to Berkeley.

7 Q. Okay. Were you involved in ordering this piece

8 of equipment?

9 A. No, not that I recall.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know who ordered it?

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. What is your best understanding as to when

13 there was a decision made to connect the KPFA transmitter

14 with KPFT so that programs produced here could be played

15 over at KPFA?

16 A. I don't know who else or what else may have

17 been discussed before I became involved. I made the

18 decision shortly before I returned to Houston that we

19 would hook up the studio here at KPFT with the KPFA

20 studios.

21 Q. Okay. When did you return to Houston, by the

22 way?

23 A. I don't recall the specific date, but it was

24 about two weeks after I arrived.

25 Q. Okay. So, you were in Berkeley for about two


1 weeks?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Who made the decision to suspend the regular

4 programming on KPFA?

5 A. That was my decision.

6 Q. Okay. And when did you make that decision?

7 A. Again, I don't recall a specific date, but it

8 was that Tuesday evening that I referred to earlier.

9 Q. Okay. The same date as you arrived?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. The same date as you first went to KPFA?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And why did you make that decision?

14 A. The station had been overrun by a crowd of

15 people. And basically in order to be able to take

16 control of the building and the air space, I made the

17 decision to switch to backup programming.

18 Q. Prior to making that decision, had you

19 discussed the decision with Lynn Chadwick?

20 A. I did not discuss it with her. I asked her if

21 something happened that I felt I needed to do that, would

22 that be okay. And she told me to do what I felt was

23 necessary at the moment on the spot.

24 Q. Okay. Did you make any technical preparations

25 for that program change?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What -- what technical preparations did you

3 make?

4 A. As I mentioned before, there were some tapes

5 from the Pacifica archives that were there at KPFA.

6 There was also another Pacifica employee that was there

7 with me, and I had instructed him to take those tapes to

8 a backup studio within the building and to switch the

9 programming over to that studio.

10 Q. Who was that?

11 A. Mark Torres.

12 Q. When was -- when did planning begin to allow

13 you to use the Houston programming over a KPFA

14 transmitter?

15 A. I can't recall a specific date. But during the

16 second week that I was in Berkeley, I developed the plan

17 that would allow us to be able to broadcast over KPFA

18 from someplace besides the studio there in Berkeley.

19 Q. Okay. And what did that plan consist of?

20 A. We had been airing the archive tapes and the

21 music drawn from the local library. I could not stay

22 indefinitely at KPFA. So, I proposed that we utilize the

23 ISDN to pipe in programming from KPFT. It was not KPFT

24 programming. It was not a repeat of what was airing in

25 Houston. It was a specific separate stream of


1 programming that was produced in Houston sent via ISDN to

2 Berkeley and transmitted.

3 Q. Okay. Do you know that the technological

4 preparations for doing that had begun before you arrived

5 at Berkeley?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you saying it didn't, or you don't know

8 that?

9 A. I -- I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Did Lynn Chadwick ever indicate to you

11 that those preparations had begun prior to your arrival?

12 A. Prior to my arrival, no.

13 Q. After you arrived, did she indicate to you that

14 those preparations had begun?

15 A. She told me that equipment was available if I

16 needed to utilize it.

17 Q. And that equipment included the ISDN?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall any conversations with Lynn

20 Chadwick or anyone else in Pacifica in June regarding the

21 possibility of your assuming responsibility to run KPFA?

22 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. What do you recall about

25 that?


1 A. There was informal talk amongst the various

2 senior management of the station -- of the various

3 stations around the country about, you know, what could

4 or might happen at KPFA.

5 Q. Okay. And -- and in what context did that talk

6 occur?

7 A. The senior management was gathered together for

8 a board meeting in Washington, D.C., and KPFA came up as

9 a topic of, you know, informal discussion.

10 Q. Okay. So, that's conversation with the

11 national staff, as well as the station program managers ?

12 A. National staff and station -- station general

13 managers.

14 Q. Station managers, excuse me. And that meeting

15 was when, in May of '99?

16 A. I don't recall. It was before I went to

17 Berkeley, but I don't recall a specific date.

18 Q. Okay. And in the course of that discussion,

19 did someone suggest that -- or did someone ask you

20 whether you would be available to go to Berkeley?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was that?

23 A. I don't recall specifically. There were a lot

24 of us in the meeting. And, like I said, it was an

25 informal discussion. People were just talking off the


1 top of their heads.

2 Q. Okay. But someone mentioned to you the

3 possibility of going to Berkeley at that time?

4 A. Among other people, yes.

5 Q. Okay. And did you indicate that you might be

6 available?

7 A. I -- I don't recall the specifics.

8 Q. Okay. But say your name was, quote, "out

9 there" at that time?

10 A. With others, yes.

11 Q. Was there conversation about anybody else going

12 to Berkeley?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was that?

15 A. I think -- my best recollection is that, you

16 know, all of the general managers were considered along

17 with perhaps some of the national office staff.

18 Q. And did other people demur?

19 A. I -- I really don't remember.

20 Q. Okay. Tell me your recollection of the

21 incident with Dennis Bernstein that occurred prior to

22 taking KPFA's regular programming off the air.

23 MS. POTTER: Objection to the extent this

24 would have to get into any personnel issues.

25 Don't answer anything about personnel


1 issues.

2 A. I can't answer that because it deals with a

3 personnel issue.

4 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Well, tell us what

5 happened in the studio on July 13th, 1999 with Dennis

6 Bernstein.

7 A. I -- I told Dennis I needed to have a meeting

8 with him. He refused that meeting. Instead, he ran

9 through the hallways of KPFA towards the newsroom. I

10 followed him, along with Gene Edwards, who is a member of

11 the national office staff. Mr. Bernstein went into the

12 news control room, which was not on the air at the time

13 but was controlling the studio or the booth next door,

14 which was live on the air.

15 I attempted to talk with Mr. Bernstein to

16 ask him to leave the building. He -- he proceeded to,

17 you know, yell at me, yell at Mr. Edwards. There were --

18 there were other people who started to gather around at

19 this time. Mr. Bernstein was causing quite a commotion.

20 During the course of this, a microphone that was in the

21 control room that we were located in was switched on and

22 our exchange started to go out on the air. That was the

23 moment that I decided that we needed to switch to backup

24 programming.

25 Q. At what point that day did you ask Bernstein to


1 have a meeting with you?

2 A. It was --

3 MS. POTTER: Once again, don't -- don't

4 get into personnel issues.

5 A. It was sometime after he got off the air that

6 day. I don't recall a specific time.

7 Q. Okay. And why did you ask him to meet with

8 you?

9 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't answer that

10 question.

11 A. I can't answer that because it has to do with a

12 personnel matter.

13 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. The program that Dennis

14 Bernstein had on the air at that time was called

15 Flashpoints?

16 A. Yes, it was.

17 Q. On that day, had Bernstein aired a report of a

18 news conference involving Dr. Berry?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. Okay. And were you unhappy with his airing of

21 the news conference?

22 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't answer

23 that.

24 MR. SIEGEL: This isn't a personnel

25 question. This is a programming question.


1 MS. POTTER: It is a personnel question.

2 It's dealing with whether or not he was happy or unhappy

3 with an employee's performance in his job.

4 MR. SIEGEL: I beg to differ.

5 MS. POTTER: Well, we can differ but I'm

6 telling the witness not to answer the question --

7 instructing the witness not to answer your question.

8 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Well, what I want to

9 do is take a break and call our judge in Oakland and ask

10 him to overrule your objection.

11 MS. POTTER: Okay.

12 MR. SIEGEL: Okay?

13 (Brief recess.)

14 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Let's go back to July 13th,

15 1999. Were you listening to or monitoring the

16 Flashpoints program that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did the Flashpoints program include some

19 coverage of Dr. Berry's press conference?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. Okay. Did it include some coverage of a Media

22 Alliance press conference?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Did you believe that the coverage of the

25 Media Alliance press conference was contrary to Pacifica


1 policy?

2 A. Could you clarify the question? I don't

3 understand if you mean the press conference or the

4 coverage of the press conference.

5 Q. Okay. Well, did you think the press conference

6 itself violated Pacifica policy?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. That was put on by third persons, the

9 Media Alliance and other people at the Berkeley

10 courthouse several blocks from KPFA, correct?

11 A. I don't know where it took place.

12 Q. Okay. Did you believe that the coverage of it

13 on Flashpoints on July 13th violated Pacifica policy?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what respects?

16 A. Mr. Bernstein's treatment and coverage of that

17 event violated Pacifica policy in that it went beyond

18 reporting the news and went into internal Pacifica

19 management personnel matters.

20 Q. Okay. And was that based on tape he played

21 from the press conference or things that Bernstein

22 himself said on the air?

23 A. Both.

24 Q. Okay. What was it about the tape of the press

25 conference that you believe violated Pacifica policy?


1 A. I don't recall the -- the specifics.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. But the -- again, taken in total,

4 Mr. Bernstein's program that day violated Pacifica policy

5 in that it went beyond just covering the news conference

6 and included information about internal Pacifica

7 management issues, Pacifica personnel issues, and that --

8 that was the violation.

9 Q. Okay. And what -- what policy did this

10 violate?

11 A. The policy that Pacifica has regarding the

12 discussion of internal management issues on the air or

13 internal personnel issues on the air.

14 Q. Okay. How could you -- could you paraphrase

15 that policy?

16 A. Basically, it's referred to in the vernacular

17 as "the dirty laundry rule" internally within Pacifica

18 and it -- Pacifica like many other broadcast outlets

19 doesn't allow the use of its airwaves for, you know,

20 people's personal personnel issues or differences or

21 quibbles with -- with management or internal issues of

22 the organization. It's a bad use of the airtime.

23 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether in the course

24 of the Flashpoints program there was discussion of the

25 termination of Nicole Sawaya's employment?


1 A. Again, I --

2 MS. POTTER: Wait one second.

3 Could you repeat that question, please?

4 MR. SIEGEL: Sure. The question was

5 whether on the Flashpoints program there was discussion

6 of the termination of Nicole Sawaya's employment.

7 MS. POTTER: Okay.

8 A. I don't really recall the specifics.

9 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Do you recall whether

10 there was any discussion of Larry Bensky?

11 A. Yes, I believe so.

12 Q. And what do you recall was said about that?

13 A. I can't recollect the particulars, but there

14 was -- there was material regarding, you know, Mr. Bensky

15 no longer being on the air on the Pacifica network.

16 Q. Okay. And did you take action to terminate

17 that program, the Flashpoints program, on July 13th?

18 A. Could you be more specific?

19 Q. Well, am I correct that the program has a -- a

20 time slot -- or had a time slot on KPFA's airwaves; is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And is it true that on July 13th the program

24 did not air for the complete time slot that was allotted

25 to it?


1 A. That's not correct.

2 Q. It's not correct? Okay. Did anything occur

3 which interrupted the airing of Flashpoints that evening?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Did -- did the program of Flashpoints

6 that evening deviate from what had been planned by its

7 producer?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you take any action to intervene with

10 respect to the Flashpoints that evening?

11 MS. POTTER: With respect to the

12 Flashpoints what?

13 MR. SIEGEL: Program that evening.

14 A. Do you mean during the program?

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Yes.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was it after the program was completed that you

18 spoke with Bernstein?

19 MS. POTTER: Objection.

20 Don't get into, once again, any personnel

21 issues.

22 A. I can't answer that.

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.

24 A. It deals with personnel issues.

25 MR. SIEGEL: Can he just tell me whether


1 it was after the program that he spoke with him?

2 MS. POTTER: No. No. I think that's --

3 you -- you are now getting into personnel issues that,

4 you know, the when, the where, the what, the...

5 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Mr. Gantner earlier

6 testified without objection that he had attempted to have

7 a meeting with Dennis and that Dennis stormed out of

8 the -- the room and went into the newsroom.

9 MS. POTTER: Well, I object to your

10 characterization of --

11 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Well, whatever. I

12 mean, the record will speak for itself. But he -- and

13 I'm just trying to pin down the sequence of events, which

14 I don't think violates Dennis Bernstein's personnel

15 rights.

16 MS. POTTER: You can just answer as to

17 when the -- approximately --

18 What was your question, after the --

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) After the Flashpoints program

20 ended, was it then that you had -- or attempted to have a

21 conversation with Bernstein?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And it was after -- after you attempted

24 to have that conversation that Bernstein went into the

25 newsroom?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Could you give us an approximation about

3 how much time elapsed between the conclusion of the

4 Flashpoints program and Bernstein's entry into the

5 newsroom?

6 A. A few minutes.

7 Q. Okay. Less than 10?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And do you recall what was on the air at

10 the time?

11 A. Yes. The KPFA evening news.

12 Q. Okay. And do you know who was directing the

13 news at that time?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Does the name Eileen Alfandary ring a bell?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you think she was directing the news that

18 evening?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the director of KPFA

21 evening news invited Dennis Bernstein to go on the air?

22 A. My recollection is no.

23 Q. Okay. What is that recollection based on?

24 A. I followed Mr. Bernstein into the newsroom.

25 Q. Okay.


1 A. I don't recall anybody asking him, Do you want

2 to be on an open mike?

3 Q. Okay. What happened in the newsroom?

4 A. As I mentioned earlier, I tried to talk with

5 Mr. Bernstein. He was very confrontational.

6 MS. POTTER: Objection. Don't -- don't

7 get into anything that would be personnel issues.

8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. And then what happened

9 after you tried to speak with him?

10 A. As I mentioned earlier, that's when a

11 microphone was turned on in the room we were in and our

12 exchange was on the air live. That's when I made the

13 decision to switch to the backup programming.

14 Q. Okay. And did you then convey an instruction

15 to someone to put on the backup programming?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And who -- who was that?

18 A. I asked Gene Edwards, who was with me, to pass

19 that instruction along to Mark Torres.

20 Q. And where was Torres? He was in another studio

21 in the same building?

22 A. I don't know if he was in the studio.

23 Q. Was there another facility outside the KPFA

24 headquarters that was being used as kind of a backup

25 facility or office at that time?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. When you went into the newsroom when

3 Mr. Bernstein was in there, did you have security guards

4 with you?

5 A. They were outside of the newsroom.

6 Q. Did they go into the newsroom?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what happened -- what did they do in the

9 newsroom?

10 A. I asked them to come into the newsroom and to

11 stand behind me. I asked them to help me resolve the

12 issue with -- with Mr. Bernstein to have him leave the

13 newsroom and leave the premises. They -- they informed

14 me that they would do what they could, that it was their

15 policy not to lay hands on anybody. So, they basically

16 tried to work with me into cajoling Mr. Bernstein to

17 leave.

18 Q. And that's when he sat down?

19 A. About that time, yes.

20 Q. And did you leave him there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you started your stint at KPFA, were you

23 given instructions by anyone regarding the rule related

24 to on-the-air discussion of internal management issues?

25 A. Instruction?


1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who gave you that instruction?

4 A. Lynn Chadwick.

5 Q. And what did she state to you about that?

6 A. She stated that as the acting manager at the

7 station that I was responsible for enforcing all of the

8 policies that govern Pacifica.

9 Q. Did she make any specific reference to the rule

10 involving the on-the-air discussion of internal

11 management issues?

12 A. Yes, she did.

13 Q. What did she say about that?

14 A. She said again that it was my responsibility to

15 enforce "the dirty laundry rule."

16 Q. How do you decide -- or let me say -- how did

17 you decide at that time where to draw the line between

18 appropriate and inappropriate discussions of Pacifica

19 decisions and management actions?

20 A. You mean that specific afternoon with that

21 specific program?

22 Q. Or just -- okay. We can start there. That's

23 fine.

24 A. I've enforced that policy at various times at

25 KPFT.


1 Q. Okay.

2 A. So, I had experience with it, and the -- the

3 policy had been violated on Flashpoints that day. People

4 who were involved in Pacifica, you know, were discussing

5 in-house personnel issues, management issues, and

6 personality -- personnel differences on the air. And so,

7 I made the decision, you know, the policy had been

8 violated. That was -- that was my finding.

9 Q. Let me just try to articulate the background

10 for my question and see if you can then comment on it

11 more. I mean, you've probably noticed that the media

12 generally is a little more publicly introspective than it

13 was, say, 10 years ago. This week The New York Times ran

14 a very lengthy article kind of critiquing its own

15 coverage of the Wen Ho Lee story. The TV networks have

16 done a lot of soul searching, again publicly, about their

17 calling the Florida primary in the last presidential

18 election. The newspapers have also covered that story.

19 You're familiar with what I'm talking about?

20 A. Yes, I am.

21 Q. Okay. So, I mean, to some extent it seems like

22 a normal thing for the press to cover itself as one of

23 the issues that the media covers. So, how do you

24 decide -- you know, obviously the -- what's going on with

25 Pacifica these days has gotten -- also gotten a lot of


1 coverage. You probably saw the article in Time magazine

2 last week or the week before, and it's been in The New

3 York Times and other newspapers. So, how do you decide

4 between what you consider to be appropriate discussion of

5 Pacifica policies and decisions and so on versus

6 inappropriate?

7 A. Appropriate discussion is, you know, a public

8 discourse about issues that come before any media

9 organization, Pacifica in particular this time. You

10 cross the line though when it involves personnel issues,

11 personnel actions that have been taken that, you know,

12 may or may not be in litigation, personnel issues that

13 may or may not be going through some sort of grievance

14 procedure or process. It's inappropriate to comment on

15 those sorts of things on the air especially when it

16 involves, you know, the organization that you, you know,

17 are working for.

18 Q. Okay. So, would you say then the line -- the

19 line is drawn between broader policy issues on the one

20 hand and individual personnel issues on the other?

21 A. Yes, I would say that.

22 Q. And I know this is hypothetical. What if

23 someone were to say, Well, we think we should cover the

24 direction taken by KPFT in Houston under Garland

25 Gantner's leadership and interview people who think it's


1 great and interview people who don't think it's great.

2 Would that be an appropriate story?

3 A. If -- if it is another media organization, of

4 course. If it is our own organization, yes, up until the

5 point where it involves, as I mentioned, before specific

6 personnel matters, personnel grievances, you know,

7 internal issues.

8 Q. Okay. Let me press you a little bit on that.

9 A lot of people might think that Amy Goodman is the best

10 known journalist who currently works for Pacifica, and

11 there are some disagreements in the organization over her

12 work. Some people think it's great. Some people think

13 it's not so great.

14 MS. POTTER: Objection.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Is that -- is that an

16 appropriate subject of discussion?

17 MS. POTTER: Don't comment on

18 whether there's --

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) I'm not asking you for your

20 opinion on whether it's great or not.

21 MS. POTTER: -- disagreement in the

22 organization or not.

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) I mean, I'm asking whether

24 that's a story --

25 MS. POTTER: This is hypothetical, right?


1 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.

2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Is that -- that an appropriate

3 story, Amy Goodman's future in Pacifica?

4 A. It could be, yes.

5 Q. Okay. During the time that you were in

6 Berkeley, did you make any of the decisions about

7 contracts with the companies that provided security at


9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. What's your understanding as to who made those

11 decisions?

12 A. I don't know who made those decisions.

13 Q. Okay. Without asking you again the names of

14 individuals, did you make any decisions regarding the

15 employment -- continued employment of any staff people at

16 KPFA while you were there?

17 A. Could you rephrase the question or --

18 Q. Yeah. I mean, did you make a decision -- any

19 decisions to fire anybody?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Did you make any decisions to exclude

22 people from the studio -- the station?

23 MS. POTTER: What do you mean "exclude

24 people from the station"?

25 MR. SIEGEL: Say they couldn't come in the


1 station.

2 MS. POTTER: People. Anybody?

3 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.

4 MS. POTTER: Any people or any people in

5 general, just people in general?

6 MR. SIEGEL: People in general.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Did you make those

9 decisions on your own, or did you seek approval of Lynn

10 Chadwick?

11 A. I informed her of my decision. I did not seek

12 her permission.

13 Q. Okay. During the time that you were acting as,

14 what, the interim station manager -- is that the right

15 title?

16 A. Acting was the title that was used.

17 Q. Okay. During that period of time, did you

18 consult with anybody on the Pacifica executive committee?

19 A. Could you define "consult"?

20 Q. Have a conversation with.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And who did you have conversations with?

23 A. I spoke with Dr. Berry, Frank Millspaugh, and

24 Micheal Palmer.

25 Q. And were those all together or individual


1 conversations?

2 A. All of them were individual.

3 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of your

4 conversations with Dr. Berry?

5 A. Dr. Berry happened to be there in the Bay Area

6 at the time I arrived. We saw each other socially at

7 lunch and, you know, she was -- basically just thanked me

8 for coming out, asked how I was doing, asked how my

9 family was. We didn't talk a lot about the specifics of

10 why I was there.

11 Q. Okay. Did she give you any direction as to the

12 tasks that you should undertake?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. What were the circumstances of your

15 having conversations with Frank Millspaugh during this

16 period?

17 A. I can't be sure of the specific date, but one

18 day while I was there he -- he called me to just to see

19 how I was doing.

20 Q. Kind of a friendly call?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. To give you support, a sense of personal

23 support?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Was that one or more than one


1 conversation?

2 A. My best recollection is that we spoke on the

3 phone once.

4 Q. Okay. And how about with Micheal Palmer, how

5 many times did you speak with him?

6 A. I can't say for sure, but I think once.

7 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of that

8 conversation?

9 A. Pretty much the same as it was with

10 Mr. Millspaugh. He had called to see how I was doing

11 and, you know, just ask what's going on.

12 Q. Okay. You and Mr. Palmer friendly on a

13 personal basis?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. During the time that you were acting

16 station manager at KPFA, who was responsible for making

17 decisions regarding items that would be paid for out of

18 Pacifica resources with respect to the situation in

19 Berkeley?

20 A. I can't say for sure. I know it wasn't me.

21 Q. Okay. Who was -- do you know who was

22 overseeing the use of those funds?

23 A. Lynn Chadwick.

24 Q. Okay. Were you aware that at one point there

25 was an office set up for Pacifica in Emeryville?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. During the time that you were in

3 Berkeley, where did you live?

4 A. A hotel in downtown Oakland.

5 Q. The Marriott?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was Lynn Chadwick living there at the time

8 also? I'm not suggesting in the same room or anything

9 but in the hotel.

10 A. I'm -- all I can say, I know for a fact she

11 spent one night there.

12 Q. Okay. Were there other reasons beyond

13 the immediate incident with Dennis Bernstein that you

14 described on July 13th for switching off the normal KPFA

15 programming?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were -- what were those reasons?

18 A. They -- as I mentioned earlier, the station

19 again had been overrun by people who had been protesting

20 outside the station.

21 Q. Okay. And so, what was there about that that

22 made you want to switch off the programming or change the

23 programming?

24 A. The people had come into the station -- or were

25 let into the station and were basically attempting to


1 take over the station. They were going into offices,

2 going into the studios. This was all happening at the

3 same time that I was trying to talk with Mr. Bernstein.

4 It was my decision that in order to safeguard the

5 property and the broadcast license that it was in the

6 best interest to switch to that backup programming.

7 Q. Okay. Well, was it your view that in order to

8 safeguard the premises you had to go to the backup

9 programming?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that as long as -- as long as people were

12 coming in and out of the building to do programming, that

13 it would be impossible to secure the premises?

14 A. I'm not clear on your question.

15 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. Well, did you think

16 there was kind of a physical inconsistency between trying

17 to carry on the normal programming and keeping the

18 building secure?

19 A. At that particular time, yes.

20 Q. Okay. And did you have a view as to how long

21 it would be necessary to go on -- go on with the backup

22 programming in order to keep the premises secure?

23 A. At that time, I did not know how long it would

24 be.

25 Q. Okay. Were you involved at all in the decision


1 to allow the KPFA and staff -- staff and volunteers to

2 resume, quote, unquote, "normal programming"?

3 MS. POTTER: Would you repeat that?

4 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah. I was asking

5 Mr. Gantner whether he was involved in the decision that

6 was made a little later that summer to allow the KPFA

7 staff and volunteers to resume normal programming.

8 A. No, I was not involved in that decision.

9 MR. SIEGEL: That's it. Thank you.

10 MS. POTTER: Okay. I have no questions.

11 (Deposition concluded at 11:43 a.m.)




















3 VS. *

* CAUSE NO. 814461-0







8 I, MYLINDA TUBBS FAIRCLOTH, Certified Shorthand

Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to

9 the following:

That the witness, GARLAND GANTNER, was duly sworn by

10 the officer and that the transcript of the oral

deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the

11 witness;

That the deposition transcript was made available on

12 February 12, 2001 to the attorney for the Defendants for

examination, signature, and return to Elite Reporting

13 Service, Inc., by March 14, 2001;

That pursuant to information given to the deposition

14 officer at the time said testimony was taken, the

following includes all parties of record:

15 Dan Siegel, Attorney for Plaintiffs;

Kathy C. Potter, Attorney for Defendants.

16 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,

related to, nor employed by any of the parties in the

17 action in which this proceeding was taken, and further

that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the

18 outcome of this action.

Further certification requirements pursuant to will

19 be certified to after they have occurred.

Sworn to by me this 9th day of February, 2001.




Certification No. 2896

22 Expiration Date: 12-31-02


3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110

24 Houston, Texas 77027

(7l3) 623-4434





3 ____________________________________________________

4 ____________________________________________________

5 ____________________________________________________

6 ____________________________________________________

7 ____________________________________________________

8 ____________________________________________________

9 ____________________________________________________

10 ____________________________________________________

11 ____________________________________________________

12 ____________________________________________________

13 ____________________________________________________

14 ____________________________________________________

15 ____________________________________________________

16 ____________________________________________________

17 ____________________________________________________

18 ____________________________________________________

19 ____________________________________________________

20 ____________________________________________________

21 ____________________________________________________

22 ____________________________________________________

23 ____________________________________________________

24 I, GARLAND GANTNER, have read the foregoing

25 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is


1 true and correct, except as noted above.



4 _____________________________





9 )

10 COUNTY OF _________)



13 Before me __________________ (name of officer) on

14 this day personally appeared __________________, known to

15 me or proved to me to be the person whose name is

16 subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged

17 to me that he executed the same for the purposes and

18 consideration therein expressed.


20 (Seal) Given under my hand and seal of

21 office this _____ day of _____________, ______.


23 ___________________________________________

24 Notary Public in and for the State of Texas




2 The original deposition transcript or Changes and

3 Signature page was/was not returned to the deposition

4 officer on ______________;

5 If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page

6 contains any changes and the reasons therefor;

7 If returned, the original deposition transcription

8 was delivered to ___________________ for safekeeping on

9 ____________;

10 That a copy of this certificate was served on all

11 parties shown herein.

12 Witness my hand this __________ day of

13 ______________, ________.



16 _____________________________


17 Certification No. 2896

Expiration Date: 12-31-02



19 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110

Houston, Texas 77027

20 (7l3) 623-4434