Deposition of Micheal Palmer






3 VS. )

) CAUSE NO. 814461-0










12 FEBRUARY 6, 2001










21 duly sworn by me at the instance of the Plaintiffs, taken

in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 6th day of

22 February, 2001, from 9:58 a.m. to 12:13 p.m., before

Mylinda Tubbs Faircloth, Certified Shorthand Reporter

23 No. 2896 in and for the State of Texas, via machine

shorthand, at the offices of Elite Reporting Service,

24 Inc., 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110, Houston, Texas 77027,

pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the

25 provisions stated on the record.


1 A P P E A R A N C E S




499 14TH STREET, SUITE 220

4 OAKLAND, CA 94612




1227 25TH STREET N.W.

7 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20037



























5 Examination by Mr. Siegel....................4

6 Reporter's Pre-signature Certificate.............91

7 Witness's Signature Page/Corrections.............92

8 Reporter's Post-signature Certificate............94



11 325 E-mail message 54
















1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 FEBRUARY 6, 2001

3 THE REPORTER: Will counsel please state

4 your stipulations for the record.

5 MR. SIEGEL: We -- we are taking these

6 depositions under what are called the Northern California

7 rules, which are different than the Southern California

8 rules. So, ultimately what will happen is that the copy

9 of the deposition that you send to Mr. Palmer's counsel

10 will be made available to him. And if he has corrections

11 to make, he will then forward -- she will then forward

12 them to you and you will send the original and the

13 corrections and my copy to me.

14 THE REPORTER: And under the Texas federal

15 rules -- federal, you get 30 days for signature. Is that

16 acceptable?

17 MR. SIEGEL: Yes.

18 MS. POTTER: Yes.


20 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:



23 Q. Okay. Would you state your full name and spell

24 it, please.

25 A. Micheal David Palmer. And Micheal is spelled


1 M-I-C-H-E-A-L.

2 Q. And what is your address?

3 MS. POTTER: Objection. He's -- we're not

4 going to give out personal addresses, given the animosity

5 and hostility going on in this case.

6 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) You can give a business

7 address, if you like.

8 A. 2500 West Loop South, Suite 100, Houston 77027.

9 Q. And what is your date of birth?

10 A. August 17th, 1958.

11 Q. Okay. Mr. Palmer, we've been introduced. My

12 name is Dan Siegel. I'm one of the attorneys for the

13 plaintiffs in a case called Adelson versus Pacifica

14 Foundation, and we're here today to take your deposition.

15 I'd like to go over briefly some of the procedures that

16 we'll follow.

17 First of all, I'm going to do my best to

18 ask clear questions of you. And if you answer the

19 questions, I will assume that my questions were clear.

20 Therefore, my first request is that if you find a

21 question unclear, that you let me know and I'll rephrase

22 it. Is that all right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Secondly, there are some conversational

25 rules applicable to depositions that we use to make sure


1 that we have a clear record. One is that we will --

2 should both make an effort not to talk over the other.

3 Sometimes you may anticipate the end of my questions or I

4 may want to step on your answers and we should avoid that

5 so -- to make the court reporter's job easier. Is that

6 okay?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And along the same lines, in day-to-day

9 conversation we often use informal gestures, sounds,

10 grunts, and so on to communicate. But in depositions we

11 must use words in the English language. Is that okay?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At the conclusion of the deposition, as we

14 discussed earlier, the court reporter will prepare the

15 transcript and it will be made available to you for your

16 editing and you may make corrections or you may even

17 change the substance of your answers if you choose to do

18 so. And I need to warn you that in the event you do

19 change the substance of your answers and the deposition

20 is later used at trial or at other proceedings in this

21 case, we would have the opportunity to comment upon such

22 changes. Do you understand that?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. In the course of the deposition today,

25 which is not expected to be overly long, you're certainly


1 free to take a break, consult with your counsel, or for

2 any other reason. We're not here to wear you out or

3 subject you to a test of your stamina. Also, in the

4 course of the deposition, your attorney may make

5 objections to certain questions, just as attorneys do in

6 court. Obviously, there's no judge here to rule on those

7 objections, and they're simply made for the record, and

8 you will be expected to answer the questions regardless

9 of the objections. The -- the exception --

10 MS. POTTER: Unless your attorney -- go

11 ahead.

12 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) The exception to that would be

13 if your attorney instructs you not to answer because the

14 question invades a privilege, such as the attorney/client

15 privilege or any other applicable privilege. Do you

16 understand that?

17 A. So, whenever she may choose to object, then

18 unless it violates some privilege, then I'm still

19 required to answer the question?

20 MS. POTTER: If I object -- after I

21 object, you still answer --


23 MS. POTTER: -- unless I tell you not to

24 answer.



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) All right. Do you have any

3 questions about the process?

4 A. No. Thank you.

5 Q. Okay. Is there any reason today why your

6 deposition should not go forward, such as illness,

7 fatigue, use of medication, or so on?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And do you feel your memory is intact

10 today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Great.

13 A. That's a good question.

14 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Okay. Mr. Palmer, in the course of noticing

17 these depositions, we served on your attorneys a request

18 that each of the parties to the case produce certain

19 documents. Have you produced any documents today?

20 A. I forwarded all the -- all the materials to

21 counsel.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. SIEGEL: Have relevant materials been

24 turned over?

25 MS. POTTER: We have some relevant


1 materials. It's my understanding that you're in the

2 process with Tonya working on a confidentiality

3 agreement. The documents all contained financial

4 information. So, as soon as the agreement is worked out,

5 we'll produce the documents.

6 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Great.

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Mr. Palmer, can you give us

8 your educational background, please?

9 A. In terms of college?

10 Q. Yeah, say, post high school.

11 A. I have a B.S. in psychology from the University

12 of Science and Arts of Oklahoma and some hours at

13 Oklahoma State in English graduate work.

14 Q. When did you receive your bachelor's degree?

15 A. At the end of 1980.

16 Q. Okay. And can you summarize your employment

17 history since you graduated from college?

18 A. Sure. I taught English at Oklahoma State for a

19 little bit. I worked with a company in Tulsa called MPSI

20 that allowed me to move to Houston to do some demographic

21 research work. I have worked in the real estate industry

22 in Houston since about 1984.

23 Q. Okay. And so, you're currently employed in the

24 real estate industry?

25 A. Correct.


1 Q. And what do you do in that industry?

2 A. I'm a real estate broker.

3 Q. And by whom are you employed?

4 A. C.B. Richard Ellis.

5 Q. And is that a commercial real estate firm?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. What sort of work do you do for them?

8 A. Well, I'm a broker and I conduct real estate

9 transactions, help others put together and conduct real

10 estate transactions.

11 Q. Okay. How long have you worked for that

12 company?

13 A. Since 1986.

14 Q. Okay. In the course of your professional work,

15 have you had occasion to be involved in sales or

16 evaluations of radio stations?

17 A. Not radio stations.

18 Q. Okay. Have you been involved in the sale or

19 transfer of radio licenses or frequency licenses?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. You are currently a member of the

22 national board of the Pacifica Foundation, correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Am I correct that you were elected in March of

25 1998?


1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but it's around

2 that time.

3 Q. Okay. And was that for a three-year term?

4 A. I think they're three-years terms right now,

5 yes.

6 Q. And so, will that term expire within the next

7 month or so?

8 A. If it was, you know, the date you said, then

9 yeah, it -- it would be coming up for, you know, ending

10 or whatever may happen at that point, yeah.

11 MS. POTTER: But you don't recall the

12 exact date?

13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the exact

14 date.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you intend to stand for

16 election or consideration for another term?

17 A. I'm not certain at this time because I don't --

18 I don't -- again, I don't know exactly when it expires

19 and I haven't addressed it yet.

20 Q. Okay. Are you a listener to radio station

21 KPFT?

22 A. On the way over here.

23 Q. Okay. Hear anything good on the show this

24 morning with Ralph Nader?

25 A. I heard parts of that and heard -- and their


1 final day of the fund drive.

2 Q. When did you first become a listener to KPFT?

3 A. In 1982.

4 Q. And how was it that you became a listener?

5 A. I think within about three days of moving here

6 just found them on the radio dial and just started

7 listening.

8 Q. And was there something about the Pacifica

9 programming that attracted you?

10 A. The music, some of the talk programming that

11 was on the air, and I just liked the -- the feel of the

12 station.

13 Q. And have you been a financial contributor to

14 the station?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Starting when?

17 A. I don't know exactly but probably around 1984.

18 Q. Okay. And can you estimate either in total or

19 on an annual basis what your contributions have been?

20 A. It's been sporadic, but I guess $5,000.

21 Q. Okay. So, that would be in the range of

22 several hundred a year?

23 A. Oh, yes.

24 Q. Okay. Have you ever been a volunteer for KPFT?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. When did you start doing that?

2 A. Around '84, '85.

3 Q. And what sort of things did you do as a

4 volunteer?

5 A. Answered the phone in fund drives --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- primarily. I mean -- I mean, it wasn't

8 every fund drive or every year but that would -- that's

9 what I did. I would answer the phones.

10 Q. Okay. Ever been an on-the-air volunteer --

11 A. No.

12 Q. -- or done technical --

13 A. No.

14 Q. -- work for them?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Did you ever serve on the local advisory board?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. When was that?

19 A. The dates I'm going to, you know, tell you I

20 don't remember exactly but beginning in around 1980 --

21 '93, '93.

22 MS. POTTER: Are you talking about KPFT's

23 advisory board?

24 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Did you understand that's what


1 I was talking about?

2 A. That's the only local advisory board I served

3 on, so.

4 Q. And how long did you serve on the local

5 advisory board?

6 A. At least three years, maybe even four years.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. I don't know exactly when the term on the local

9 advisory board ended.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. So, I don't know exactly when it stopped.

12 MS. POTTER: So, don't guess. If you

13 don't know, don't guess.


15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) How did you happen to become a

16 member of the local advisory board?

17 A. There was a local board member named Jane

18 Eliosa, who I knew from a different nonprofit that we

19 were working on at that time, Margaret Austin Center, and

20 she mentioned her involvement with KPFT. I mentioned to

21 her that I had been listening for quite some time and a

22 contributor. And through dialogue, she asked if I would

23 be interested in going to a meeting with some of the

24 other folks on the board to see about becoming a board

25 member, which I did. And over a relatively, you know,


1 short amount of time was nominated and voted on to the

2 local advisory board.

3 Q. Was there actually a nomination and election

4 procedure that put you on the board?

5 A. I'm not sure how you'd want to phrase it.

6 Q. Uh-huh.

7 A. You know, Jane asked me to go to a meeting with

8 some of the folks on the board. I went to the -- to the

9 board, and some people asked a few questions. And then

10 I -- I don't recall exactly how it happened because it's

11 been several years, but she called one day and said, you

12 know, If you are interested, you can be on the local

13 advisory board.

14 Q. I see.

15 A. I said okay.

16 Q. Okay. And during the time that you were on the

17 local advisory board, approximately how many members did

18 it have?

19 A. I don't know exactly because, you know, between

20 who attended regularly. And then when I made it, the

21 numbers fluctuated. But I would say roughly 10 to maybe

22 12 in regular attendance, by my memory only.

23 Q. Okay. And during the time that you were on the

24 local advisory board, did the local advisory board

25 consider the -- and I'll try to a use a neutral word


1 because I know this is one of the key disputes in the

2 lawsuits so I'll use the word "selection." Was the local

3 advisory board involved in the selection of any national

4 board members?

5 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

6 A. Could you say it again?

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. And, again, I'm not

8 trying to trick you into agreeing with the plaintiffs'

9 contentions in the lawsuit, so I'm not going to say

10 election or nomination. I'll use the term selection --

11 A. Right.

12 Q. -- and we can agree that the term doesn't have

13 any hidden meaning here except as a way to address the

14 process of picking people or nominating people or

15 whatever.

16 So, the question is, was the local

17 advisory board involved in the selection of any national

18 board members during the time that you sat on the board?

19 A. I don't think so. I'm not -- I'm not real

20 sure, but I don't -- I don't think so.

21 Q. Okay. Let me -- if -- if I were to suggest for

22 purposes of refreshing your recollection that David

23 Acosta, who I understand is from Houston, first became a

24 member of the national board in March of 1996, would that

25 refresh your recollection as to whether the board was


1 involved in selecting members?

2 A. Whether the local --

3 Q. Yeah.

4 A. -- advisory board was involved?

5 Q. Yeah.

6 A. No. I mean, I'm -- I'm not disputing what

7 you're saying. I'm just not recalling when the LAB

8 actually voted for a national representative --

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. -- to the national board.

11 Q. Okay. I take it you know David Acosta?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. So, would I be correct in interpreting your

14 testimony as saying that you just don't have any

15 reelection -- excuse me -- recollection of the KPFT local

16 advisory board discussing -- discussing Mr. Acosta's role

17 on the national board?

18 MS. POTTER: Objection. That wasn't his

19 testimony.

20 A. I'm just -- I'm just telling you I don't

21 remember the meeting, you know, if that happened or when

22 it happened, just I'm not recalling.

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. So, again, because your

24 attorney objected to the form of the question, do you

25 recall any discussion at an LAB meeting of David Acosta's


1 role on the national board?

2 MS. POTTER: Objection, foundation.

3 A. I just don't recall any specific local advisory

4 board meetings to nominate or send David to the national

5 board.

6 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) How about just to discuss his

7 status on the national board?

8 A. I don't recall any. I'm not trying to, you

9 know, make your life hard or anything. I just -- I don't

10 remember any exact discussions about it.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I'm sorry.

13 Q. I -- I inferred from your earlier testimony

14 that -- that you probably missed some meetings when you

15 were on the LAB?

16 MS. POTTER: Objection, form.

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Does the KPFT local advisory

19 board issue minutes of its meetings?

20 A. I'm not -- I'm not sure. And I --

21 MS. POTTER: What time period are we

22 talking about here?

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Any time period that you're

24 aware of.

25 A. I mean, I -- I just don't recall right now.


1 Q. Okay. Do you know an individual by the name of

2 Roger Scarbrough?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was he a member of

5 the Pacifica Foundation board of directors at some time?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And was he a -- a member from Houston when he

8 was on the national board?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 MS. POTTER: What do you mean by "member

11 from Houston"?

12 MR. SIEGEL: Is he from Houston, as

13 opposed to from Poughkeepsie.

14 MS. POTTER: Okay.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Was it your

16 understanding that he was a board representative of KPFT

17 on the Pacifica national board?

18 A. That he was --

19 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

20 A. Okay. Are you saying that he was the national

21 representative from Houston? Is that what you're saying?

22 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Or a national representative

23 from Houston.

24 MS. POTTER: Are you saying a national

25 representative from the city of Houston or from the --



2 A. Yes.

3 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And do you recall how it was

4 that he came to be a member of the Pacifica national

5 board?

6 A. Not at all.

7 Q. Were you at any meetings of the KPFT local

8 advisory board at which Mr. Scarbrough's nomination to

9 the national board was discussed?

10 MS. POTTER: Objection, no foundation.

11 A. Not that I recall.

12 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.

13 A. I don't know his term, and I don't know when

14 his term started or -- or anything like that. So, I'm

15 just...

16 Q. Okay. Let me ask you whether it would --

17 excuse me -- would it refresh your memory if I suggested

18 that he served on the national board from February of

19 1994 through February of 1997?

20 A. The -- the beginning, I don't recall. The

21 latter part to where, you know -- that, I recall.

22 Q. Okay. And what do you recall about that?

23 A. Just that as -- as I attended national

24 meetings, Roger was there as the -- as a representative

25 from Houston. And when his term expired -- I think


1 really what it was is he moved and -- but I don't know if

2 his term expired or he moved and said, I can't do this

3 anymore, as far as representing Houston on the national

4 board.

5 Q. Okay. Can you tell us how it was that you

6 became a member of the national board?

7 A. In -- in what sense, like voted on or just, you

8 know?

9 Q. Well, let's start. How -- how did the -- what

10 is your recollection as to when the issue first arose as

11 to whether you might be interested or other people

12 thought you should be a member of the national board.

13 A. The -- in -- at some point, I went as an

14 alternative to a national meeting. I don't recall which

15 one it is. I remember where it is, but I don't recall

16 the dates. And it was a last minute -- a very last

17 minute substitution of my presence for the other person.

18 And, I mean, within a day.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. And I was just able to go for a number of

21 reasons and attended. And the person that I went in

22 place of had a -- as my memory tells me -- had a family

23 member that was needing care and attention outside of

24 Houston so frequently she was not able to attend the

25 national board meetings. And then, you know, I would go


1 if the schedules, you know, and things like that. In

2 terms of being elected to the national board, that

3 happened -- I think you had suggested -- in early '98,

4 and -- and it was the board nominated and I was voted on.

5 And so, that's how it came to be.

6 Q. Okay. Who is the person whose place you took

7 as an alternate?

8 A. I don't recall her last name. Her first name

9 is Mary.

10 Q. Mary. And do you recall approximately when it

11 was that you sat in for Mary or served as alternate to

12 Mary?

13 A. I -- I've, you know, tried to remember, but I

14 don't remember exactly when. But it was a -- it was a

15 summer meeting, and it was held in Berkeley.

16 Q. I have here what purport to be rosters of the

17 national board going back to 1991. Do you know someone

18 named Dawn Dancy?

19 A. No.

20 Q. That's D-A-W-N, D-A-N-C-Y.

21 A. (Moving head side to side.)

22 Q. You never ran across that person as a national

23 board representative from -- from Houston?

24 A. No.

25 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.


1 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you know a Sharon Stewart?

2 A. The name I know. I believe that she had left

3 the station about the time that I was -- her name had

4 circulated when I was initially coming on to the local

5 advisory board. That's all I recall about that.

6 Q. Is there anything else you can tell us about

7 this person Mary, like what -- what she did for a living?

8 A. As I recall, she was an attorney. All I recall

9 about Mary is she was a very sweet woman, and I think it

10 was her mother up in east Texas somewhere that needed

11 personal care. And -- and that's what she did most of

12 the time.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. You know, that's what I recall.

15 Q. Do you recall Ed Shannon?

16 A. Ed Shannon? The name rings a bell, but I don't

17 think I ever met him.

18 Q. Do you know Leonor Lizardo?

19 A. I don't know if I've ever met Leonor. The name

20 I've heard but -- but, you know, the name I've heard. I

21 don't know her personally.

22 Q. Okay. Well, you've got me stumped. The

23 rosters don't list any Mary. They -- they list David

24 Acosta and Robert Scarbrough as the two reps, and then

25 you apparently replacing Scarbrough. No Mary, except


1 Mary Frances Berry.

2 A. (Shrugging shoulders.)

3 Q. When you were elected or -- excuse me --

4 nominated to the national board by people here in

5 Houston, was there a nomination process, like in a

6 meeting where people said, I nominate Micheal Palmer and

7 someone else said, I nominate someone else, that kind of

8 thing?

9 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

10 A. You know, the -- the nomination, I don't recall

11 who made it or where. But my feel -- my memory is more

12 that it was more on the national level than it was in the

13 local level. Now, I don't recall exactly what the

14 discussion was locally, but it was more from the local

15 level -- I mean, from the national level that I -- my

16 memory serves that says that the nomination occurred.

17 That's -- that's just my recollection.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. And are you -- are you

19 saying that people on the national level suggested to the

20 folks here in Houston that they nominate you or --

21 MS. POTTER: Objection.

22 A. I don't know if that's how it went. It's just,

23 you know, when was that? It was three years ago or so.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Uh-huh.

25 A. I just don't recall exactly, you know, exactly


1 how it went. There -- there may have been some

2 discussion locally. I just don't recall it, but that's

3 -- that's my recollection there.

4 Q. Okay. Do you have a sense as to whether if

5 there was discussion locally it was on a -- it was in a

6 more informal way, rather than a formal process at a

7 meeting?

8 A. If -- if there was a discussion, it was

9 probably informal at the local board meeting at that

10 time.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether there was

12 competition locally for the position that you serve in?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You just don't recall, or do you recall there

15 was none?

16 A. I don't think that there was any competition,

17 as you're calling it. Not to my memory anyway.

18 Q. Okay. Do you recall what the process was at

19 the national level to seat you or elect you as a national

20 board member?

21 A. I'm sure that it went through the governance

22 committee and they made a recommendation and it was voted

23 on by the national board ultimately. Because, you know,

24 the nominations go through the governance committee

25 ultimately. And in terms of getting to the governance


1 committee, I just don't recall exactly what -- what

2 happened, how it was or anything.

3 Q. Did you sit on -- or excuse me -- did you

4 attend the meeting of the governance committee where your

5 nomination was considered?

6 A. I just don't recall. I mean, I -- I don't

7 recall that meeting of the governance committee, if I was

8 there or not. I hope I wasn't because I'd rather they

9 talk about who we're -- who is being considered in terms

10 of when they make their formal recommendation with those

11 people not there. But I don't recall exactly.

12 Q. Okay. Were you asked to submit any materials

13 such as a resume or other materials to the governance

14 committee?

15 A. I don't recall who asked. But at one point, I

16 did forward a -- a little biography, so to speak, that I

17 used more for work, you know, than a resume.

18 Q. Okay. And do you recall being interviewed by

19 any members of the national board or executive committee

20 prior to the time the national board acted on your

21 nomination?

22 A. I think that -- I'm -- I'm going to tell you

23 that I do not recall being interviewed. But I had been

24 attending meetings for a little while, and so the people

25 on the board had some familiarity with me previously.


1 That's why when you say do I recall being interviewed by

2 the executive committee, no, I don't. I don't think that

3 occurred because I don't think the executive committee

4 has separate interviews of candidates from the governance

5 committee or the whole board. And that's why I'm not

6 sure if the governance committee interviewed me or not.

7 I just don't -- but, you know, I was familiar to them

8 already. And so, I hope that answers your question.

9 Q. Okay. Well, do you recall being at the

10 September 1997 meeting in Washington, D.C. where Mary

11 Frances Berry attended for the first time as chair of the

12 board?

13 MS. POTTER: Objection, no foundation.

14 A. I recall being at that meeting. You know, in

15 terms of the first meeting that she attended, I don't

16 recall specifically. But I know that I was -- attended

17 those meetings. I was probably there.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Were you present at the meeting

19 when the board voted on your selection to the national

20 board?

21 A. When was that again?

22 Q. It would have been the first 1998 meeting. The

23 documents say March, but --

24 MS. POTTER: Objection.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) -- I can't swear to it.


1 A. Yeah, I think -- yeah, I want to say yes.

2 Q. Okay. And do you recall what happened when

3 your nomination was put to the -- put to the board?

4 A. I believe it passed.

5 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether your name was put

6 to the board along with the names of other people who

7 were being elected to the board at that time?

8 MS. POTTER: Objection.

9 A. I don't recall.

10 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you recall whether someone

11 made a motion to seat you or elect you or something like

12 that?

13 A. I'm going by memory here. The -- normally when

14 the board --

15 MS. POTTER: Only if you remember.

16 A. Yeah, they -- they voted that I be seated and

17 proceeded with the other business.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Was there any debate on the

19 issue?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 Q. Okay. Since you've been on the national board,

22 have you served on any committees?

23 A. The finance committee and the governance

24 committee. Against my will, on the 50th anniversary

25 committee. And I think the first meeting that I attended


1 they asked me to sit in on the programming committee.

2 Q. Have you ever sat on the executive committee?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I mean, I currently sit on the executive

6 committee.

7 Q. And how long have you been on the executive

8 committee?

9 A. Since I became the -- the treasurer.

10 Q. And when was that?

11 A. I think that was around March of last year.

12 Q. March of 2000?

13 A. Yeah, in terms of when I became the

14 treasurer --

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. -- and replaced June Makela.

17 Q. Now, you were -- were you present at the

18 February 1999 meeting of the national board?

19 A. Where was it? Where -- you have to kind of

20 give me geography. I'm a visual and geographic-oriented

21 person so where -- do you remember where that meeting was

22 held?

23 Q. I believe it was in Berkeley.

24 A. In Berkeley?

25 Q. Yes.


1 A. February '99?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall that there were some changes in

5 the bylaws of Pacifica voted on at that meeting?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have a recollection as to the purpose of

8 those bylaw changes?

9 MS. POTTER: Objection.

10 MR. SIEGEL: What's the objection?

11 MS. POTTER: To the form.

12 A. I think I'd -- I'd want to see the exact

13 language because, you know, I -- I do recall that -- that

14 there was a purpose and I was at those meetings, yes.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. I'm sure I can find them

16 and show them to you.

17 MS. POTTER: Do you want to go off the

18 record for a second and take a break?

19 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah, let's go off the

20 record.

21 (Brief recess.)

22 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) To refresh your memory as to

23 the bylaw change, I want to show you a couple of

24 documents. One is the Pacifica Foundation national

25 governing board meeting booklet for the February 1999


1 meeting. And right at the top of what's Page 2I, there

2 is a --

3 MS. POTTER: Is this already an exhibit?

4 MR. SIEGEL: I believe so.

5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Then I'll also show you Page 8

6 of 84, which are the reporter's transcript of the

7 February 28th, 1999 meeting, and if you look at the

8 comments that I bracketed there.

9 MS. POTTER: What did you want him to look

10 at on this page?

11 MR. SIEGEL: The notice of bylaw change at

12 the top of the page.

13 MS. POTTER: That's it?

14 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah. He can look at

15 whatever he wants. There's no secrets. But my question

16 was if he recalls the purpose of the bylaw change, and

17 I'm showing him these documents to possibly refresh his

18 memory as to the purpose of the bylaw change.

19 A. Yes. Thank you.

20 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Having reviewed the

21 documents that I've shown you and described on the

22 record, do you recall what the purpose of the bylaw

23 change was?

24 A. My memory is that it was to come into

25 compliance with the CPB guidelines; mainly dealing with


1 the fact that, according to CPB, national board members

2 could not simultaneously be local advisory board members.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. So, that's what the -- the effort was about.

5 Q. Okay. Okay. And do you recall whether

6 following the passage of the bylaw change in February

7 1999, national board members were advised that they would

8 have to resign from the local advisory boards in order to

9 remain on the national board?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you do so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether the CPB

14 expressed concerns about the governance of the foundation

15 other than the concern which was addressed by requiring

16 national board members to resign from the LAB's?

17 MS. POTTER: Could you -- I got lost on

18 that. Would you mind restating that?

19 MR. SIEGEL: I'll ask the reporter to read

20 it back.

21 (Requested portion was read.)

22 A. No. I don't think -- I don't recall any other

23 concerns that the CPB expressed. I don't know that they

24 really expressed any concern about this, to tell you the

25 truth. They simply were letting it be known at some


1 point that this was how they were set up and, you know,

2 kind of FYI to the foundation.

3 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Did you personally have any

4 conversations with any of the CPB representatives

5 regarding the issues they raised about Pacifica's

6 governance?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Ever have any conversation with Robert Koonrad?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What is your understanding as to the process by

11 which national board members are selected to the Pacifica

12 Foundation national board following February 1999 bylaw

13 revisions?

14 A. You mean currently, as well?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. That the local advisory boards can nominate

17 people, sends them up to the governance committee, and

18 they can be considered there. And that there can be a

19 large membership, and that large membership could be a

20 local advisory board nomination or a nomination from the

21 board.

22 Q. Okay. Under the current bylaws, is it

23 necessary that there be any representatives from an

24 individual LAB?

25 MS. POTTER: Objection. What do you mean


1 by "representative"?

2 MR. SIEGEL: That's a plain word.

3 A. Could you say it again just so I can be clear

4 what you're saying?

5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. Under the current

6 bylaws, is it your understanding that there must be any

7 representative from a given LAB?

8 A. The -- I don't know if the bylaws -- I don't

9 know the bylaws well enough, but I don't know if the

10 bylaws -- what they say exactly. But it's my feeling and

11 understanding that there need to be representatives from

12 the signal areas, and I think that's how it was expressed

13 that there still was a desire to have local signal area

14 representation on the national board.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And that's still a strong desire.

17 Q. Okay. But the signal area representatives need

18 not be persons nominated by the LAB's; is that correct?

19 A. Not necessarily, no.

20 Q. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or

21 not. We may have a double negative here. Are you

22 agreeing with me that they need not be persons nominated

23 by the LAB's?

24 A. A local signal area rep?

25 Q. Right.


1 A. They don't have to be nominated by the LAB.

2 Q. And would you agree that prior to the February

3 1999 bylaw changes each LAB was entitled to have two

4 representatives on the national board?

5 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

6 A. That's -- no, I don't -- no. That's not my

7 understanding on how it was.

8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. What is your

9 understanding?

10 A. That the local advisory board could nominate

11 people --

12 Q. Right.

13 A. -- and then they had to be approved by the

14 national board. They were not necessarily guaranteed

15 approval by the national board.

16 Q. Okay. I understand that. What if they weren't

17 approved?

18 A. They weren't approved.

19 Q. But does that mean that there would be no one

20 from the particular LAB or that the LAB would then

21 nominate someone else?

22 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

23 A. They could nominate somebody else. And, you

24 know, I don't recall any situation where that happened,

25 so to speak. But the national board, it was always my


1 understanding, had the -- was the one that granted people

2 the right to serve on the national board. It wasn't, you

3 know, the -- the -- the local advisory board did not send

4 up people that were just automatically seated. That's

5 not my understanding.

6 Q. Okay. And I'm not arguing with you about that.

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. But I'm saying -- let -- let me put the

9 question this way -- that prior to February 1999, each

10 LAB had two representatives on the national board who had

11 to be both nominated by that LAB and elected by the

12 national board. Would you agree with that?

13 A. Not in all cases. I mean, I -- I went as an

14 alternative -- an alternate.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. So, it wasn't the way you're describing it in

17 my memory.

18 Q. Well, isn't it true that when you were -- went

19 as an alternate, you went -- you went as an alternate to

20 an individual who had been nominated by your LAB?

21 A. I don't know if they'd been nominated --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. -- because they were there before me.

24 Q. Okay. Well, isn't it true that prior to

25 February 1999 the board roster included two persons from


1 each LAB who were designated as representatives from that

2 LAB?

3 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

4 A. You're asking me a question -- because then I

5 would have to recall everybody that was on the board at

6 the time in February of 1999. And if you can show me who

7 maybe attended even that specific meeting, because I

8 believe that would be helpful perhaps.

9 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Let me show you a

10 document that is entitled Pacifica Board of Directors

11 Elections and Terms, members listed in alphabetical

12 order, updated 1-28-99.

13 A. So, what was your question again?

14 Q. Isn't it true that each LAB had two persons who

15 were designated as board representatives from that LAB?

16 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

17 A. No. There's only one from KPFA here on this

18 roster.

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.

20 A. So, you know, based on this roster, no.

21 Q. Okay. But the individuals were designated as

22 board representatives, correct, from the stations?

23 MS. POTTER: Objection.

24 A. That's what it says here, yeah.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Now, isn't it true that


1 currently all members of the board are considered

2 at-large representatives?

3 A. I don't know about -- I don't agree with the

4 terminology but I -- I don't know.

5 Q. Well, what terminology would you use?

6 A. They're board members.

7 Q. Okay. Are there different selection procedures

8 that apply to various members of the board at this time?

9 A. Different procedures for the various members?

10 Q. Yeah. I mean, is there more than one process

11 for electing board members?

12 A. No.

13 Q. For all board members, nomination is made to

14 the board governance committee, correct?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. And anybody can nominate; is that right?

17 A. The -- the local communities, the local boards

18 can nominate and members of the board can nominate

19 people, as well.

20 Q. Okay. And the board governance committee

21 forwards nominations to the national board; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And those nominations are voted up or down by

25 majority vote?


1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Okay. Were you present at the board meeting

3 when J. Imani's nomination was forwarded by the KPFA

4 local advisory board?

5 A. When --

6 MS. POTTER: Object to the question.

7 A. I'm not sure. When -- when was it sent? Do

8 you know?

9 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Let me get it out of my stack

10 here. J. Imani. The June 2000 meeting in Washington,

11 D.C.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Do you recall what -- how that

14 nomination was handled?

15 A. Exactly, no. I mean, I sit on the governance

16 committee and would presume that his resume came up -- or

17 nomination and it was handled.

18 Q. Okay. Do you recall that it came to the board

19 governance committee at that meeting?

20 A. I don't have a specific recollection of his

21 nomination coming to the board committee at that time.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know how that nomination was

23 treated by the board?

24 A. No. I mean, I don't recall his nomination

25 specifically, no.


1 Q. Okay. Was J. Imani elected to the national

2 board?

3 A. He's not sitting on the board right now so, no.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. Why not?

6 Q. Why wasn't he elected?

7 MS. POTTER: Object to the form. The

8 witness has answered he doesn't recall.

9 A. Yeah, I don't recall. I mean, clearly he

10 wasn't voted on; but the reasons why, I don't recall.

11 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. During the time that

12 you've been a member of the national board, can you

13 recall any other person nominated by a local advisory

14 board, other than J. Imani, who was not seated?

15 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

16 A. I think if my memory serves me that at some

17 point I was nominated and it wasn't accepted.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) When was that?

19 A. Sometime prior to when I actually was seated.

20 Q. Who nominated you?

21 A. I don't recall exactly who, but it may have

22 been -- I don't know exactly who. It may have been Roger

23 Scarbrough, but I don't recall exactly. If there are

24 minutes, then it's probably reflected there.

25 Q. Were you nominated by your LAB, or were you


1 nominated by another national board member?

2 A. I -- whoever it was that nominated, I think it

3 was more -- it was -- was on the board at that time. But

4 I don't recall if it was an LAB nomination or not.

5 Q. When did this occur?

6 A. I don't recall exactly. And, you know, I had

7 been attending meetings for a while, and the -- the local

8 board would have liked for me to. But I don't recall

9 exactly when it happened or anything like that. It's

10 just that it's been a while. My memory just isn't that

11 clear on that. It's been several years ago, so it's hard

12 for me to recall.

13 Q. Okay. Isn't it true that prior to February

14 1999, during the time that you've been attending national

15 board meetings, there are always two persons on the

16 national board who had been nominated by the KPFT local

17 advisory board?

18 MS. POTTER: Asked and answered.

19 A. That had been nominated and -- and voted on by

20 the local advisory board?

21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) And voted on by the national

22 board.

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. Okay. So, it -- wouldn't it be the case that

25 at the time this consideration of your nomination came


1 up, in order for that nomination to be in order you would

2 have had to have been nominated as an at-large member?

3 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

4 A. It could have been that that's how it was

5 occurring, as an at-large member. I just don't recall.

6 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Do you recall that

7 beginning of the year 2000, the Pacifica national

8 headquarters was moved from Berkeley, California to

9 Washington, D.C.?

10 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I know

11 that it was relocated from Berkeley to Washington, D.C.

12 Q. And how did that come about?

13 A. The executive director wanted it to be moved,

14 and so it was moved.

15 Q. Okay. So, it was your understanding that was

16 the executive director's decision?

17 A. I don't think she made that decision on her

18 own.

19 Q. Okay. Well, who else made the decision?

20 A. I don't recall who else was involved in the

21 decision exactly. I just am not -- my memory is just not

22 clear about who exactly was involved in that decision

23 ultimately.

24 Q. Okay. Do you have a memory inexactly of who

25 was involved in the decision?


1 A. I don't think I'd want to go there because if I

2 speculate, it may be inaccurate. And I wouldn't want to,

3 you know, lead you or anybody else in the wrong

4 direction.

5 MS. POTTER: You shouldn't guess.


7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you recall whether the

8 national board voted on the issue?

9 A. I don't recall the national board voting on the

10 issue.

11 Q. Do you recall whether the executive committee

12 voted on the issue?

13 A. Well, no, I don't because I didn't become an

14 executive committee member until whatever the day was

15 that June Makela left as treasurer.

16 Q. Okay. Do you recall Mary Berry saying that she

17 was involved in the decision?

18 A. Her saying it to me?

19 Q. Yeah. Or saying it in your presence.

20 A. I don't recall about her saying it in my

21 presence or anything like that, no.

22 Q. Do you know the reasons for the change?

23 A. Well, the reasons I think that -- for me, I

24 always thought it made more sense for it to be in D.C.

25 But the exact reasons probably had something to do with


1 the idea that there needed to be a consolidation of the

2 location of the national office and the finance office

3 and that D.C. was the best place for that.

4 Q. Okay. Well, when you say "consolidation" of

5 the finance office, at the time the national office moved

6 from Berkeley to Washington, isn't it true that the

7 finance office remained in Los Angeles?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did the finance office move from Los

10 Angeles to Washington?

11 A. I don't think that it has as of yet.

12 Q. Okay. So, what did you mean when you said that

13 the move was connected to a consolidation of the national

14 office and the finance office?

15 A. There's always been -- there's been a desire

16 for that to happen. Because it's just -- I'm sure you

17 can understand. You've got an office, the national

18 office, and then the finance office located in another

19 location. It's -- it can make things difficult at times.

20 So, putting them together, you know, just makes sense.

21 Q. Are there plans to move the finance office?

22 A. It's -- it's still a desire that it be

23 consolidated with the national office.

24 Q. Okay. Has the executive committee discussed

25 who will replace Sandra Rosas --


1 MS. POTTER: Objection.

2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) -- as the finance director?

3 MS. POTTER: Don't answer any questions

4 regarding personnel issues.

5 MR. SIEGEL: That's not a question

6 regarding personnel issues. It's a question regarding

7 the executive committee.

8 A. Yeah, but it's dealing with personnel issues

9 and I think we'll follow --

10 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Well, the --

11 MR. SIEGEL: That objection is out of

12 order. What's the basis of it?

13 MS. POTTER: You're asking him questions

14 about personnel issues that involve -- involve privacy

15 issues of employees.

16 MR. SIEGEL: Privacy of who? There's no

17 person holding the position. The position is vacant.

18 There's no privacy right to not discuss a vacant

19 position. Sandra Rosas has been fired. That's a public

20 matter. There is no finance director. My question is

21 how they're going to fill the position. That's not a

22 personnel issue.

23 MS. POTTER: If you want to rephrase your

24 question as to whether or not they have an intention of

25 filling the position, without getting into any specifics.


1 If you know.

2 MR. SIEGEL: The question was simply

3 whether they discussed filling the position. That does

4 not involve anybody's privacy rights, simply the

5 operation of the committee.

6 A. Can you ask the question again?

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. Has the executive

8 committee discussed filling the position of finance

9 director of the foundation?

10 A. Discussed filling the position?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. Has the executive committee been briefed

14 by the executive director as to her plans to fill the

15 position?

16 MS. POTTER: And I'll also object on the

17 grounds of relevancy.

18 MR. SIEGEL: Okay.

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) You can answer the question.

20 A. Could you ask the question again?

21 Q. Sure. Has the executive director briefed the

22 executive committee as to her plans for filling the

23 position of finance director?

24 A. Not as yet.

25 Q. Okay. As treasurer of the organization, have


1 you had discussions with the executive director about

2 filling the position of finance director?

3 A. We've talked about the fact that she is, you

4 know, going to find a replacement and -- and is in that

5 process. But there isn't any particular person that's

6 been identified.

7 Q. Okay. Has she indicated to you what process

8 she's going to use to fill the position?

9 MS. POTTER: Once again, I'm going to

10 object on relevancy. Where is this going? This is all

11 subsequent to your filing a lawsuit. How could it

12 possibly have any bearing on any of the issues that are

13 present here?

14 MR. SIEGEL: The issues encompassed in the

15 lawsuit extend right up to the present day in terms of

16 the operations of Pacifica.

17 MS. POTTER: Well, how could that be

18 possible if they're events that occurred after the filing

19 of your lawsuit? The events that occurred after the

20 filing of your lawsuit are not relevant here, Counselor.

21 MR. SIEGEL: Well, I think you're wrong.

22 But in any case --

23 MS. POTTER: Well, my objection stands.

24 MR. SIEGEL: Okay.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) So, what are the plans for


1 filling the position?

2 A. Tell me what your question is again. I'm

3 letting y'all do your thing.

4 Q. Okay. What are the plans for filling the

5 position of finance director of the foundation?

6 A. She's going to, you know, put out, I guess,

7 a -- I don't know what you call it but --

8 MS. POTTER: Don't guess if you don't

9 know.

10 A. I don't know how she's going to solicit people,

11 but she's going to have applicants submit their resumes

12 and go through a normal hiring process.

13 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. And do you intend to be

14 involved in that process?

15 A. At some point.

16 Q. Okay. In what manner?

17 A. I'm not sure right now. There's nobody to

18 consider right now.

19 Q. Well, would it be your intent to interview the

20 executive director's choice for the position?

21 A. I think that when she's finally got some

22 candidates that they will be interviewed by several

23 people on the board, if not the entire board.

24 Q. Okay. Was the entire board involved in the

25 process of hiring Bessie Wash as executive director?


1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. In what manner was it involved?

3 A. They had to approve. The board voted on her

4 becoming the executive director.

5 Q. Okay. Did the board interview her?

6 A. Well, you know, she's been a station manager so

7 we've been familiar with her for some time. In terms of

8 the board interviewing her, I don't recall exactly if she

9 was formally interviewed or not, to tell you the truth.

10 Q. You don't recall whether you took part in an

11 interview process with her?

12 A. What I can recall is that when the board had

13 her consideration come up to be executive director, I

14 felt comfortable in -- in my knowledge of her as a

15 general manager and -- and, you know, voted at the time

16 she was considered for the executive director by the

17 national board of Pacifica.

18 Q. Okay. And the question was, did the board

19 interview her?

20 MS. POTTER: Asked and answered.

21 MR. SIEGEL: Asked and not answered.

22 A. I just don't -- I don't recall that exact time

23 when she was -- if she was formally interviewed.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.

25 A. I'm not trying to confuse you or anything.


1 It's just, you know, she had been a manager for years.

2 And so, her ability to do the job, I was comfortable

3 with, so...

4 Q. Well, and I understand if that's the answer.

5 But what I can't grasp is, I mean, it's not as though

6 you've been involved as a board member of Pacifica in

7 interviewing dozens of job applicants. And so, I would

8 think -- well, let me lay a foundation. Have you ever

9 hired anybody in your real estate business or any other

10 situation?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. POTTER: Objection, relevance.

13 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Have you ever been involved in

14 an interview of a job applicant to fill a position?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. So -- so, you have a sense of the

17 process of what a job interview is?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. People normally sit across the table and ask

20 questions and the applicant answers them. So, is there

21 any reason why you couldn't remember whether you

22 interviewed -- the Pacifica board interviewed Bessie Wash

23 before appointing her as executive director?

24 MS. POTTER: Objection. The witness

25 testified he doesn't remember. Badgering won't make him


1 remember.

2 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) I mean, is there any reason why

3 you can't remember?

4 A. Well, I guess part of my, you know, lack of

5 clarity about this is about that as much as I've had the

6 opportunity to interview people for a specific position,

7 frequently when they have been involved in the

8 organization prior and -- and were coming into a new

9 position --

10 Q. Uh-huh.

11 A. -- because I already knew who they were and

12 what their work ethic was, then they just, you know, were

13 told, You have this new assignment and these are your

14 duties and you go from there. So, I've seen both sides

15 of it. And so, you know, like I said, my familiarity

16 with her was already in place --

17 Q. Uh-huh.

18 A. -- and so I don't recall if there was -- where

19 she was interviewed. I just don't recall exactly when or

20 where she was interviewed, or if she was. But I felt in

21 my own mind that she could do the job. And when it came

22 up for consideration at the board meeting, I voted for

23 her.

24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the executive

25 committee interviewed her for the position?


1 MS. POTTER: Objection. Asked and

2 answered.

3 MR. SIEGEL: No. We haven't discussed the

4 executive committee yet.

5 A. I don't recall exactly. I mean, I just don't.

6 There -- Dan, I mean, can I --

7 MS. POTTER: Can we go off the record for

8 a second?

9 MR. SIEGEL: Okay.

10 (Brief recess.)

11 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Back on the record.

12 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) After conferring with your

13 counsel, have you --

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. You don't recall?

16 A. (Moving head up and down.)

17 Q. How many -- during the time you've been on the

18 executive committee of the Pacifica Foundation, which is

19 now for, what, about a year --

20 A. Approximately.

21 Q. -- how many job interviews has the executive

22 committee conducted?

23 MS. POTTER: Objection.

24 A. I don't recall any, to tell you the truth.

25 And -- and what I was going to tell you, there's -- there


1 are -- people talk during the meetings because that's the

2 only time we get together. And there are committee

3 meetings. There's the national board meeting. And so,

4 when or if it exactly happened, I just don't recall right

5 now. So, if you're saying has the executive committee in

6 the last year had a job interview, I don't recall.

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. How often has the

8 executive committee met in the year since you've been on

9 it?

10 A. We meet at the national board meetings,

11 typically. And if there's a matter that comes up, you

12 know, in between the meetings, then there will be a

13 conference call --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- as needed.

16 Q. And can you recall how many of those conference

17 call meetings have taken place in the year since you've

18 been on the executive committee?

19 A. I can't recall.

20 MS. POTTER: Objection.

21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Can you give me an approximate

22 number?

23 A. Three, four maybe.

24 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. I've got an exhibit to

25 mark. It's a -- I guess it's No. 325. It appears to be


1 an e-mail message.

2 (Exhibit No. 325 was marked.)

3 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Showing you a document

4 that's been marked Exhibit 325, this is a document that's

5 made you famous, Mr. Palmer. Do you recognize this

6 document?

7 MS. POTTER: Objection.

8 A. It -- it appears to be an e-mail from me, yes.

9 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. And is it an e-mail from

10 you?

11 A. Well, it -- I mean, it appears to be. I mean,

12 that's all I can tell you. I mean, it doesn't look like

13 anything on my screen at work but, you know, I don't know

14 what it looks like when it comes out on the other end.

15 Q. Okay. It says ""

16 Is that your e-mail address?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And would you just take a minute to --

19 to look -- look it over so you can tell me if indeed this

20 is a copy of an e-mail message that you wrote?

21 A. It appears to be an e-mail that I wrote, yes.

22 Q. And did you write it in July of 1999?

23 A. The date on this e-mail is July 9, 1999 it

24 looks like, yeah.

25 Q. And is that consistent with your recollection?


1 A. Yeah, that's what it says.

2 Q. But is it also consistent with your

3 recollection?

4 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it says

5 here it's 7-9 so that's -- yeah, that's the date.

6 Q. Okay. And why was it that you wrote this

7 e-mail message?

8 A. I wanted to communicate some things in my mind

9 to Dr. Berry.

10 Q. And the message begins, "I salute your

11 fortitude in scheduling a news conference opportunity in

12 the beloved Bay Area regarding one of the most pressing

13 issues of our time." Why did you write that?

14 A. I think she had a news conference out in the

15 Bay Area at that time.

16 Q. Okay. And why did you salute her fortitude in

17 scheduling the news conference?

18 A. I think I was being facetious at the time.

19 Q. Okay. And you referred to the Bay Area as the

20 beloved Bay Area. Was that also being facetious?

21 A. Yeah, I mean, it's -- you know, who is it

22 said -- Tony Bennett or whatever -- left your heart in

23 San Francisco so, whatever.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Tongue-in-cheek, facetious, whatever you want


1 to call it. I mean, I like the Bay Area.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I like Point Reyes.

4 Q. Me, too.

5 A. And the other, you know, geographic attractions

6 out there, as well.

7 Q. And "one of the most pressing issues of our

8 time," did that refer to the controversy that was taking

9 place at KPFA?

10 A. Probably.

11 Q. Okay. And then in the second paragraph you

12 say, "But seriously, I was under the impression that

13 there was support in the proper quarters, and a definite

14 majority, for shutting down that unit and reprogramming

15 immediately." Excuse me. I'm losing my voice here.

16 What were you referring to when you wrote that?

17 A. That there were some changes that I felt needed

18 to be made at KPFA and that I thought that there was some

19 action that could be taken in doing that and so I was

20 expressing that.

21 Q. Okay. And what did you mean by shut -- by the

22 words "shutting down that unit"?

23 A. Well, my wording here isn't exact, mainly

24 because it's like -- it's a very informal transmission to

25 her --


1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- here. That the -- that there would be an

3 effort to make some adjustments to the programming at the

4 station.

5 Q. And what kind of adjustments were you referring

6 to?

7 A. Adjustments in the programming again, just

8 whether it was scheduling or the shows themselves, things

9 like that.

10 Q. And specifically?

11 A. I don't recall any specifics.

12 Q. When you say "shutting down that unit," do you

13 mean shutting down KPFA or shutting down the people who

14 were running KPFA at the time? What were you referring

15 to?

16 A. Just effecting a change so that the programming

17 on the air would be more in the direction I thought that

18 it should go.

19 Q. Okay. And what direction is that?

20 A. Something that would be more likely to draw a

21 larger audience and still fulfill the mission and -- and

22 continue to support the local community.

23 Q. And what sort of programming changes did you

24 believe would accomplish those goals?

25 A. Well, the -- my underlying premise for all of


1 the stations is that we have small audiences in all of

2 the signal areas and that all of the programming could be

3 improved to bring in more listeners, as well as staying

4 faithful to the Pacifica mission. So, it applies here,

5 as well.

6 Q. Well, can you give me some examples or an

7 example of what you mean by that?

8 MS. POTTER: What he means by which part

9 of the statement?

10 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) By improving the programming in

11 ways that would attract a broader audience or a larger

12 audience and still say faithful to the Pacifica mission.

13 A. Well, I can speak only about what goes on here

14 in Houston.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And we've made adjustments in the schedule.

17 We're bringing in more listeners, and we're trying to

18 incorporate additional news and the local talk

19 programming to sustain those listeners and continue to

20 bring in more audience to make it more self-sufficient

21 and a better radio station.

22 Q. Okay. And how is that a change from what had

23 existed in the past?

24 A. The local programming back when I originally

25 started listening and even when I became involved in the


1 local board was not bringing in audience and not allowing

2 the station to meet its bills. So, the -- there was a

3 problem there.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. And so, they made adjustments, and they -- they

6 changed up the programming schedule and eliminated some

7 shows and brought in some other shows. And that's how

8 they adjusted.

9 Q. Okay. I guess I'm just trying to get a -- a

10 more specific sense. If someone were to say, Okay,

11 Mr. Palmer, what did you do in Houston to improve the

12 local broad -- programming? What did you get rid of?

13 What did you add? What did you do about the music to

14 improve the programming?

15 MS. POTTER: Object to form.

16 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) "You" being -- "you" being the

17 station.

18 A. Well, I didn't do any of it.

19 Q. I understand. But "you" being KPFT.

20 A. I can tell you what Garland, the local manager,

21 carried out. There were some shows in the schedule that

22 he eliminated, which I believe most of which were

23 replicated elsewhere in the local area, radio

24 programming. And he made adjustments to bring in some

25 talk, some music, and to kind of more solidify a block of


1 time where it would be more -- more continuity in it.

2 Instead of a news show followed by a little music,

3 followed by a news show, followed by a talk show,

4 followed by music, talk, news, blah, blah, blah, to where

5 there were more kind of -- more continuity in what a

6 person could listen to for any length of time. And so,

7 that's -- I don't know if that answers your question, but

8 that's kind of what happened here in Houston.

9 Q. Okay. Well, the comment about changing the

10 blocks is something that I can understand, but I'm still

11 not understanding what you're talking about in terms of

12 eliminating some shows. How would -- what are the shows

13 that were eliminated or --

14 A. I don't recall all of them. But, for instance,

15 there was a -- a German program that played -- by my

16 memory, the few times I listened to it -- oompah music in

17 the afternoons for one hour on Sunday afternoon that was

18 sandwiched between some other programming. And it just

19 wasn't -- it -- it -- it was a weak program. And so,

20 that program was discontinued.

21 Q. Okay. Can you give me any other examples?

22 MS. POTTER: Are you asking him as a

23 listener? Because he's testified that it was the station

24 manager who made the changes. He didn't make the

25 changes. So, as a listener, you're asking him what


1 changes he noticed in the radio station?

2 MR. SIEGEL: I'm not asking him as a

3 listener. I'm asking him as a member of the national

4 board and LAB member and supporter of the station. This

5 isn't Joe Blow on the street. This is someone who is

6 involved in the leadership of KPFT and has been for a

7 long time.

8 MS. POTTER: He's testified that he wasn't

9 involved in making the changes. It was the station

10 manager.

11 MR. SIEGEL: That's clear. You can

12 testify to that again if you like, and we understand

13 that.

14 Q. But Mr. Palmer said he supported those changes

15 and thought other stations should make those. So, I'm

16 trying to put myself in the role of the person who calls

17 Mr. Palmer and says, Well, what can we do to implement

18 your suggestions? How would we go about this?

19 A. Well, each market is different. So, the

20 station manager would have to -- would be the one that

21 would know best about their programming and where the --

22 the strengths and weaknesses in the programming was. And

23 they would have to talk with, you know, themselves and

24 their program, you know, manager and things like that.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Well, in terms of KPFT,


1 did the changes include a change in the overall

2 percentage mix of music as compared with talk and news?

3 MS. POTTER: If you know.

4 A. Yeah. I don't know what the percentages were

5 before or after. I just don't know it. So, I don't know

6 about percentages in terms of change --

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you know --

8 A. -- before or after.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

10 A. That's all right.

11 Q. Do you know if there was a larger share of

12 music after the change as compared with before?

13 A. You know, you're asking about a percentage.

14 Q. Well, you don't have to be precise but I'm

15 just -- I mean, if it was half and half before, if it

16 became two-thirds, one-third, or three-quarters, one

17 quarter.

18 A. I don't know the percentages but the -- in

19 terms of when I would listen to the radio, there was more

20 music. There was still talk, but there was more music,

21 which was fine with me.

22 Q. There's more music now or more music then?

23 A. I'm talking about when I listened.

24 Q. Right.

25 A. When I listened.


1 Q. Currently?

2 A. More music available now than when -- than

3 before, yeah.

4 Q. Do you know what methodology the station used

5 or the station manager used in determining which programs

6 were less popular versus more popular?

7 A. I don't know exactly how it did that, no.

8 Q. I mean, you made a reference to an oompah music

9 show that used to be on. I mean, do you have any idea --

10 A. That wasn't meant to be derogatory. That's

11 just how I remember it.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Because I'm not a fan of German music at all.

14 Q. Okay. But do you know whether that show had

15 very heavy listenership among European Americans who live

16 in the Houston area?

17 A. I don't -- I don't know exactly, but I would --

18 I would -- no, I don't know exactly, and I'm not going to

19 speculate.

20 Q. Okay. Well, getting back to your e-mail

21 message, when you said you were "under the impression

22 there was support in the proper quarters, and a definite

23 majority, for shutting down that unit and reprogramming

24 immediately," do you mean a definite majority on the

25 national board?


1 A. I don't know about the national board but in

2 terms of the folks that oversee the operations.

3 Q. So, is that national staff?

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. Is that who you were referring to?

6 A. Executive director.

7 Q. Okay. You mentioned Cheryl. That's Cheryl

8 who?

9 A. I don't recall her last name, but she was on

10 the national staff at that time. I just can't recall her

11 last name right now. Sorry. Cheryl.

12 Q. You don't mean Cheryl Fabio Bradford, do you?

13 A. No, no. She was in the national office. It

14 was -- I just can't recall her last name right now.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Sorry.

17 Q. Well, do you have any -- let me rephrase that.

18 Did you have any knowledge in July of 1999 what sort of

19 reprogramming was being considered for station KPFA?

20 A. The actual reprogramming, no.

21 Q. Or generally. You say "reprogramming

22 immediately."

23 A. I don't know what they had in mind.

24 Q. How did you know they had something in mind?

25 A. Well, because it had been a question in my mind


1 for some time as it had been, I guess, at really all the

2 stations. And -- and I think that Lynn was wanting to do

3 this to get some different programming blocks or

4 different programming schedule going at the station. The

5 specifics, I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. Well, do you know what kind of

7 reprogramming they did when they shut down the regular

8 programming at KPFA?

9 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

10 A. What kind of reprogramming they did?

11 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Yeah.

12 A. I didn't listen to the station at the time, so

13 I don't know exactly.

14 Q. Did you ever hear a report from anyone on what

15 sort of reprogramming they did?

16 MS. POTTER: Objection.

17 A. A report? No.

18 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Did anybody ever tell you what

19 sort of reprogramming they did?

20 A. I heard that it had been changed. To what

21 exactly, I don't recall. But that there was more music.

22 That's all I recall about it.

23 Q. Do you recall they got a shipment of tapes from

24 the Pacifica archives in Los Angeles and played old

25 speeches on the KPFA station for weeks at a time?


1 MS. POTTER: Objection. No foundation.

2 A. I don't know exactly what they did. I don't

3 know if there were tapes from the archives that were sent

4 up there. So, I -- I don't know. And, again, I wasn't

5 listening so I don't know exactly what they were putting

6 out over the air.

7 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Did you ever talk to Garland

8 Gantner about what kind of programming they did when he

9 was acting as -- acting station manager at KPFA?

10 A. Maybe after at some point I'm sure I just asked

11 him how it was and what he did and all that kind of

12 stuff, yeah.

13 Q. What did he tell you?

14 A. He said it wasn't, you know, the best

15 experience in his life or something to that effect and

16 that, you know, he had gotten through it, wouldn't want

17 to have to do it again.

18 Q. Were you involved with the decision to send

19 Garland out to Berkeley to act as general manager -- or

20 excuse me -- station manager?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Getting -- getting back to your memo

23 here, you said, "As an update for you and Lynn, I spoke

24 with the only radio broker I know last week." Is that

25 true that you spoke to a radio broker?


1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. And who was that?

3 A. I don't recall his name exactly right now. I

4 don't have my computer. I don't keep those names in my

5 mind. You know, if I went and looked elsewhere, perhaps

6 I could remember his exact name but I don't know his name

7 right now.

8 Q. How do you know this person?

9 A. I had found him through some calls that I had

10 made previously and just asked him some questions.

11 Q. Did you meet with him?

12 A. I did not meet with him.

13 Q. Spoke to him on the phone?

14 A. Spoke to him on the phone.

15 Q. Well, did you have him do some research for

16 you?

17 A. Research?

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. What do you mean by "research," because --

20 Q. Well, you say you spoke with the only radio

21 broker I know last week and his research shows 750,000 to

22 1.25 -- I guess that's million -- for KPFB.

23 A. Research, did I ask him to do research?

24 Q. Right.

25 A. No.


1 Q. Did you give him some information about KPFB?

2 A. Information about KPFB. I didn't give him any

3 information about KPFB.

4 Q. Well, was this a person who had heard of KPFB

5 before you spoke to him?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know if he knew of KPFB

7 before or not. I mean, I don't know what he knew or

8 didn't know of KPFB at that time, no.

9 Q. How many times did you speak with him?

10 A. Two, three times total, probably.

11 Q. None of these were in person?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How was it that he gave you an estimate of the

14 value of KPFB?

15 A. During the phone conversation, I asked him if

16 he knew of KPFB, of that signal, and if he had any idea

17 on the value of a signal like that.

18 Q. And what did you tell him about the signal that

19 would allow him to make an estimate?

20 A. I just told him, Do you know about KPFB, that

21 it was a -- I can't remember the word or what it is but

22 that it's -- it's not a big signal. I just asked him if

23 he knew about it, and he gave me an estimate of what he

24 thought it would be worth.

25 Q. Okay. Now, in your memorandum you say this is


1 "the only radio broker I know." So, it doesn't sound

2 like someone you got out of the Yellow Pages.

3 A. No. I mean, I don't think you could go to the

4 Yellow Pages and find radio brokers in there, no.

5 Q. How did you go about finding a radio broker?

6 A. Because of the fact that I'm on the board or

7 involved with Pacifica in general, I read about the radio

8 industry and had called a firm that I knew that had owned

9 radio stations and asked them if they knew of a radio

10 broker that I could talk to.

11 Q. Okay. And you really can't remember his name?

12 A. I don't recall his name right now, no.

13 Q. I mean, is there any reason why you can't?

14 MS. POTTER: Objection.

15 A. I mean --

16 MS. POTTER: The witness has testified he

17 doesn't remember.

18 MR. SIEGEL: I know.

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) But in the -- let me ask you

20 this, Mr. Palmer. In the real estate business, you deal

21 with a lot of facts and figures, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you need to know when you speak to someone

24 square footage, price per square foot, location of

25 properties, and so on, right?


1 A. (Moving head up and down.)

2 Q. Right?

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. And I take it you're successful at this

5 business?

6 A. That's depends on your definition of success.

7 Q. Well, are you successful within your own

8 definition?

9 MS. POTTER: Objection. This isn't

10 relevant.

11 A. Am I where I want to be? No.

12 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Well, do you think

13 you're good at this business, being a real estate broker?

14 A. I'm a good real estate broker.

15 Q. So, I mean, I'm kind of surprised by your lack

16 of memory today.

17 A. Well, you know, I mean, I -- I -- I can tell

18 you why.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I talk to a lot of people in my business daily,

21 you know. I don't know exactly how many calls, but I'm

22 on the phone all day. I have meetings. I meet a lot of

23 people. I don't recall those people's names. Within a

24 year after I do a deal, it's very likely that I may not

25 recall the names of the specific -- the specific name of


1 an individual in that transaction, an attorney, the title

2 company person, the other broker, the principal, the

3 wife, the kids. And that's why sometimes it will be a

4 first name, like Cheryl's name. You know, I don't recall

5 Cheryl's last name. I spoke to her, you know, on and

6 off, but I don't recall her last name right now. Okay.

7 So, this specific individual, I had a few conversations

8 with and that was it. I never talked to him again, and

9 there was no need to remember his name. That's just all

10 there is to it.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Do you recall all the people that, you know,

13 the names of all the people that you interact with over a

14 year or two period of time.

15 Q. Not everyone. But I tell you, if I would have

16 been involved in writing this e-mail which made me

17 nationally famous overnight and had people picketing my

18 house and office because of it --

19 A. I don't think I'm nationally famous.

20 MS. POTTER: Objection. That's

21 argumentative. There's no question pending on the table.

22 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Have there been personal

23 repercussions as a result of this e-mail?

24 A. Personal to me?

25 Q. Yeah.


1 A. Like what? What do you mean?

2 Q. Well, have people threatened you?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Who has threatened you?

5 A. I don't recall the names, Dan. Sorry.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. You know, I mean, I get e-mails. I get

8 letters. I get calls.

9 Q. Okay. Have people picketed your office?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Have people contacted your employer and urged

12 them to fire you?

13 A. Fire me? They may have even said, You should

14 fire him, yeah.

15 Q. So, this has been an unpleasant experience?

16 A. I've grown through this experience.

17 Q. Well, as they say, if it doesn't kill you, it

18 will make you stronger.

19 A. I'm stronger.

20 Q. Okay. So, I mean, I guess this would -- any

21 way. No point arguing about it, but it just seems that

22 this would be something that would be rather vividly

23 seared into your memory as a result of what's occurred.

24 MS. POTTER: Objection, Counselor. The

25 witness has testified over and over again he doesn't


1 answer -- that he doesn't recall. I'm sorry. This is

2 badgering.

3 A. There was nothing memorable about the

4 conversations really.

5 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. All right. You say,

6 "This is the best radio market in history." How did you

7 learn that?

8 A. In some either trade magazine or Wall Street

9 Journal, business magazines. I think that around this

10 time I think that you could have talked to people in

11 radio that would have said that this is a very good radio

12 market for signals.

13 Q. Okay. And you -- you then say, "Private media

14 companies would be the most aggressive in terms of price,

15 which he thinks could be in the 65 to 75 million dollar

16 range depending on various aspects of the deal." Was

17 that the information given to you by this radio broker?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that referred to selling KPFA?

20 A. Probably, yeah.

21 Q. Okay. So, did he tell you this -- was this

22 person a male, by the way?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Was he located in Houston?

25 A. No.


1 Q. Where was he located?

2 A. The -- I usually called him on the cell phone,

3 but I think at the time that he may have been in Dallas.

4 Q. Okay. Did he indicate to you that he had

5 looked into the value of KPFA or alternatively that he

6 would simply rely on what you told him about the station?

7 A. Well, when I talked to him, I asked him, you

8 know, on a completely unofficial basis what he thought of

9 the value of the signal.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And as far as what his knowledge of KPFA past,

12 present, or future, I don't know. I mean, I -- I didn't

13 ask him that. I just asked him what he thought as a

14 broker.

15 Q. Okay. Well, did he ask you where KPFA was

16 located?

17 A. I don't recall the conversation that well

18 exactly. He knew KPFA. I mean, if he asked me where it

19 was or not in that conversation, I don't recall.

20 Q. Did you tell him how strong the signal was?

21 A. I don't know how strong the signal is.

22 Q. Okay. Did he ask you where it was located on

23 the dial?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. Did he give you the sense that he knew what


1 KPFA was before you spoke with him?

2 A. Before I spoke to him?

3 Q. Yeah.

4 A. He didn't really say but, you know, he was

5 familiar enough with, I guess, the San Francisco market

6 that he recognized the call letters. And, you know, I

7 didn't have to explain, you know, where it was or

8 anything like that. I mean, he seemed to know. And, you

9 know, I don't know what the size of the market is for

10 radio signals and all, but it's probably not as large as

11 the Houston real estate market at all.

12 Q. Uh-huh.

13 A. So, maybe he's familiar with it. I don't --

14 you know, I didn't know. I didn't -- I -- I asked him if

15 he recognized KPFB and KPFA. And he probably said yes,

16 because there wasn't a lot of education that had to take

17 place.

18 Q. I mean, I don't know but it strikes me there

19 must be ten -- tens of thousands of radio stations in the

20 United States, maybe not that many.

21 A. Tens of thousands? I don't know.

22 Q. On the next page you discuss among other

23 things -- excuse me -- the -- your feeling "that a more

24 beneficial disposition would be of the New York signal."

25 Do you see that?


1 A. Where are you at?

2 Q. In the -- kind of in the middle of the first

3 paragraph.

4 A. Uh-huh, yeah.

5 Q. Okay. Why did you suggest that a more

6 beneficial disposition would be of the New York signal?

7 A. Well -- well, I don't recall an exact number.

8 Everything in New York is more expensive and more

9 valuable.

10 Q. Okay. You also mentioned "the long and

11 emotional history as the Bay Area" -- "without the long

12 and emotional history as the Bay area." What did you

13 mean by that?

14 A. KPFA is pretty rooted, as I understand it, in

15 the Bay Area and that's where Pacifica got its start.

16 So, there's a longer history, and it's pretty

17 self-evident, to me anyway.

18 Q. Well, was it your feeling in July of 1999 that

19 Pacifica should divest itself of one of its stations?

20 A. No. No, that wasn't my feeling. I think that

21 my feeling all along has been simply that we should, you

22 know, look into it to be aware of what the assets of the

23 foundation are worth and -- and keep -- keep our options

24 open. But I've never advocated just, you know, leaving a

25 market. That's not anything that -- that even I would


1 want to do.

2 Q. Okay. But did you think that as discussed on

3 Page 1 of this exhibit that you should sell one of the

4 stations and perhaps acquire a new station in the same

5 market at a lesser cost?

6 A. That's one of the possibilities, yes.

7 Q. So, my question is still, do you think that

8 Pacifica should sell one of its stations?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You don't think that?

11 A. Just to sell the station?

12 Q. Well, not just to sell it but as part of a

13 financial and programming strategy?

14 A. Do I still? You're asking me right now do I

15 feel like we should do that?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. The -- the people have spoken, and Pacifica has

20 to make it on its own regardless of where or how much its

21 licenses are worth or its other assets. And so, no, I

22 don't think we should.

23 Q. Did you think that in July of 1999?

24 A. I -- in July of '99, I wanted to have us

25 consider it, to look into it, to get more information.


1 Without the information, you know, all the talk was just

2 talk.

3 Q. Do you recall that after Exhibit 325 became

4 public that Pacifica put out a press release indicating

5 that KPFA was not for sale?

6 A. I mean, if you've got it, yes. I don't recall

7 exactly that -- when it was put out or if it was put out.

8 Q. Well, do you recall being quoted in a press

9 release?

10 A. Which press release?

11 Q. The press release regarding the response to

12 Exhibit 325.

13 A. I mean, if you've got something to show me, I

14 can look at it and tell you if that was it. But I don't

15 recall being quoted anywhere.

16 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you a document

17 entitled Pacifica Press Release Regarding Palmer E-mail,

18 dated July 21st, 1999, and see if the highlighted section

19 refreshes your recollection about a comment that you

20 made.

21 A. (Reviewing document.) So, what's your question

22 again? Do I --

23 Q. Do you recall making that statement that's

24 quoted in the e-mail?

25 MS. POTTER: Does this refresh your


1 recollection of making that statement?

2 A. It refreshes my recollection of making that

3 statement.

4 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. So -- did you make the

5 statement?

6 A. It's shown there so, yes, I would presume that

7 I made the statement.

8 Q. Okay. So, did something happen to change your

9 mind about the idea of selling one of the stations?

10 A. When?

11 Q. Sometime after July 12th, 1999.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. What happened?

14 A. The outfall.

15 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether David Acosta

16 agreed with the idea of selling KPFA?

17 A. I think David -- I can't speak for what he did

18 exactly, but I think that he was open to the idea of

19 looking at it. Looking into the idea, that's all.

20 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether he proposed taking

21 out a five million dollar loan against the value of KPFA?

22 A. I have a recollection about that. I don't know

23 what the context was, and I think that he wasn't

24 saying -- he certainly didn't bring that to an action

25 item. I think he was just, again, putting out ideas


1 about what we can do to accomplish some of the other

2 things we want to do at all of the stations and within

3 Pacifica.

4 Q. Uh-huh.

5 A. And I don't know -- I mean, I don't know if

6 that was anything that he'd seriously thought about or

7 not.

8 Q. Okay. Do you remember Dr. Berry making the

9 suggestion that by selling one of the existing stations

10 a -- Pacifica would be able to start a series of new

11 stations or a group of new stations?

12 MS. POTTER: Object.

13 A. I can't recall her saying that specifically,

14 but I do know that, you know, somebody -- maybe it was

15 her. I don't know -- said that, you know, if -- if there

16 were other, you know, stations that were available in

17 other markets, it would be, you know, something worth

18 looking into. I mean, again, you're saying it was from

19 Dr. Berry. I think that in casual conversation other

20 board members had said, you know, things about, Wouldn't

21 it be nice if we had a signal in Denver or Chicago or

22 whatever.

23 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Uh-huh.

24 A. Just casual conversation.

25 Q. Okay. You were on the board during summer '99


1 obviously. We've just been talking about that. What

2 efforts did the board make during that period to oversee

3 the funds that were being spent to deal with the crisis

4 at KPFA?

5 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

6 A. Could you say it again? What efforts did the

7 board make to --

8 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Oversee the expenditures.

9 A. Well, I think that -- my memory is that at some

10 point the executive director was authorized to be sure

11 that the station was secure.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And that's what she did.

14 Q. Well, isn't it true that at some point after

15 the crisis had passed, so to speak, Sandra Rosas put out

16 a report which showed that between five and $600,000 was

17 spent to respond to the crisis?

18 MS. POTTER: Object.

19 A. I don't recall the exact amount or the report,

20 but it was a sizeable amount of money.

21 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Do you recall that Ms. Rosas

22 put out a written report on that to the board?

23 A. My memory is that she had sent out something,

24 and it may have been a written report. I don't know what

25 your definition of report is or whatever, but she had put


1 out some figures on what the -- the security expenses

2 were.

3 Q. Okay. Security and other expenses?

4 A. I don't -- I'd have to see it to tell you

5 exactly what it was, Dan. I don't exactly recall, but

6 she had put out some figures on what, you know, the

7 expenses were.

8 Q. Okay. Does the number $540,000 ring a bell?

9 A. It's vaguely familiar.

10 Q. Any reason to think that's a wrong number?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Do you know where those monies came

13 from?

14 A. Pacifica paid them.

15 Q. And isn't it true that that was not money that

16 was in the budget that the board adopted for that year?

17 MS. POTTER: Objection.

18 A. I think that's safe to say it wasn't a budgeted

19 item.

20 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) It was an unforeseen set of

21 expenses, correct?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Okay. And so, do you know where in the budget

24 the money came from?

25 A. Exactly in the budget where it came from? No.


1 I know that -- that it was paid by Pacifica as the bills

2 came due, that we were fairly prompt. And recalling

3 right now exactly -- I don't recall exactly where it was

4 paid from, which account or line item or whatever, like

5 that.

6 Q. Okay. Do you recall what efforts the board

7 made to insure that Lynn Chadwick wouldn't spend the

8 foundation into bankruptcy by taking funds that were

9 needed to pay salaries and other operating expenses?

10 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

11 A. I don't recall that anybody ever thought that

12 she would spend the foundation into bankruptcy.

13 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay.

14 A. There was never a discussion like that or

15 anybody even suggested that.

16 Q. Pacifica's budget for 1999 was approximately

17 $10 million; is that right?

18 A. Approximately.

19 Q. So, 500,000 is 5 percent of the budget?

20 A. (Moving head up and down.)

21 Q. Is it your recollection that the budget has

22 that kind of surplus built into it?

23 A. The operating budgets for the stations they

24 probably don't have that built into it, but those aren't

25 all of the stations' resources. You know, I mean, there


1 are other accounts and, you know, Sandra could probably

2 be the one to better give you the exact description of it

3 because she's the controller.

4 Q. Right. I guess my question though has to do

5 with how the board -- excuse me -- exercises its

6 responsibility over the resources of the foundation to

7 ensure that the foundation maintained its solvency during

8 that crisis.

9 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

10 THE WITNESS: I know you keep saying it,

11 and I always forget what that means, if I should answer

12 or not.

13 MS. POTTER: It means you can go ahead and

14 answer.

15 A. Ask me again, Dan, please.

16 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Sure. Well, my question is,

17 what did the board do during summer '99 to exercise its

18 fiscal responsibility over the organization to make sure

19 that it remained solvent when all this unbudgeted money

20 was being spent?

21 A. Well, my memory is that Lynn had done what she

22 needed to do to secure the station, which is an

23 obligation Pacifica has, that we have an obligation with

24 the over -- the overseeing governing entities to keep the

25 station on the air and secure. And so, she was


1 addressing that concern. And that as far as payment and

2 obligations, all these other things you're mentioning, we

3 relied on Sandra to keep Lynn up to date. And Lynn would

4 notify the board in terms of what we did. The board

5 itself would receive information from Lynn as to where

6 things were and acted accordingly.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know George Reiter?

8 A. George Reiter?

9 Q. R-E-I-T-E-R.

10 A. I don't -- I don't think so.

11 Q. Were you familiar with his program on KPFT

12 called "Thresholds"?

13 A. Is it a current program?

14 Q. I guess it was current until last October.

15 MS. POTTER: If -- if you're familiar with

16 it or not.

17 A. Well, I don't know that I've listened to the

18 show. I may have actually met him at one point.

19 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) He's a professor of physics at

20 the University of Houston?

21 MS. POTTER: Is that a question or --

22 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah.

23 A. Yeah. And that helps because yes, I -- I met

24 him and -- and spoke with him, yes.

25 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Okay. Do you know why that --


1 A. But I want you to know that before you said

2 anything about U of H, I did not recall his name exactly.

3 Just so you'll know that --

4 Q. Names are not your thing?

5 A. Names are not my forte.

6 Q. Do you know why the show was taken off the air?

7 A. I don't know exactly why the show was taken off

8 the air.

9 Q. Do you know if it was taken off the air because

10 Mr. Reiter violated the -- some people call the -- the

11 gag rule, the dirty laundry rule?

12 A. I don't know exactly why his show was taken off

13 the air, Dan.

14 Q. Okay. Am I correct that you and Board Member

15 Bertram Lee were put in charge of developing a process

16 for developing new advisory boards?

17 MS. POTTER: Object to the form.

18 A. We were asked to come up with some ideas on how

19 local advisory boards could be improved, I guess, is the

20 way that I would put it. He and I -- actually, I don't

21 think we ever spoke about it after the request was made.

22 I think I talked to Garland about the idea one time --

23 Q. Uh-huh.

24 A. -- and perhaps Mark Shubb one time. And that

25 was it, and there was no other action taken --


1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- in that area.

3 Q. Wasn't the idea to -- to set up some new

4 boards, some new advisory boards?

5 A. That was -- that was the idea, I think, yeah.

6 Q. Has that been done?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How come?

9 A. Well, that's a good question. It's just

10 another one of those things that kind of came up at some

11 point. Either there wasn't enough energy to see it

12 through, or it just wasn't followed through on

13 completely.

14 Q. Okay. How does the LAB function in Houston?

15 A. Well. Well, I guess.

16 MS. POTTER: Are you asking when he was on

17 the LAB --

18 MR. SIEGEL: No, now.

19 MS. POTTER: -- or now?

20 If you know.

21 A. I mean, it operates well. I've never heard of

22 there being any, you know, rancor among the board or

23 anything like that so, you know, I think it's doing fine.

24 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) Are the relationships between

25 the board and Garland Gantner positive ones at this time?


1 A. Currently?

2 Q. Yeah.

3 A. That's my general impression. I don't -- I go

4 to those meetings infrequently, with no regularity. I

5 did go the last time they had a board meeting. It seems

6 they had a good relationship then. And the time before I

7 had been I didn't hear or sense that there was any ill

8 will between the board and Garland.

9 Q. Where do the meetings take place?

10 A. More often at the station. They've been held

11 at another location on Montrose. I think it's -- I can't

12 remember. It's Metropolitan something or another. It's

13 just down the street. They've had meetings there before,

14 too.

15 Q. Has there been any controversy about whether

16 the meetings would take place at the station?

17 A. Not that I know of.

18 Q. Okay. Have you heard about negative

19 relationships between station managers and the LAB's at

20 other stations?

21 MS. POTTER: What do you mean by negative

22 relationships?

23 THE WITNESS: I need to step out and go to

24 the men's room again.

25 (Brief recess.)


1 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) So, the question was, were you

2 aware of any situations where there were negative

3 relationships between local advisory boards and station

4 managers?

5 MS. POTTER: And I think I asked you to

6 define what you mean by negative relationship.

7 Hostilities?

8 MR. SIEGEL: Yeah, that would certainly be

9 an element of it.

10 A. I -- I think that, you know, over the time that

11 I've been involved with Pacifica, you know, stations have

12 had, you know, hot and cold relationships at times with

13 the managers. But nothing has ever been -- certainly

14 never violent, and they've always worked out in the end.

15 Q. (By Mr. Siegel) What's your understanding of

16 the relationship between station management and the LAB

17 in Los Angeles?

18 A. From what I've heard, they're not real good

19 right now mainly because David is one of those that

20 brought the lawsuit and -- and has areas that he wants to

21 have the board acting. And I think the manager has a

22 different opinion. And so, there's some latent --

23 whatever you want to call it -- hostility or, you know,

24 they don't -- they don't get along swimmingly right now.

25 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the national


1 organization is planning to take any action to address

2 that problem?

3 A. There's no action that I know of that's going

4 to address that problem under consideration. Have you

5 got any suggestions?

6 Q. I know when I talked to Bob Farrell, he was

7 going to attempt to do some mediation. That was about a

8 month ago. That's all the questions I have. Thank you.

9 MS. POTTER: Thank you.

10 (Deposition concluded at 12:13 p.m.)





















3 VS. *

* CAUSE NO. 814461-0







8 I, MYLINDA TUBBS FAIRCLOTH, Certified Shorthand

Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to

9 the following:

That the witness, MICHEAL PALMER was duly sworn by

10 the officer and that the transcript of the oral

deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the

11 witness;

That the deposition transcript was made available on

12 February ___, 2001 to the attorney for the Defendants for

examination, signature, and return to Elite Reporting

13 Service, Inc., by March ___, 2001;

That pursuant to information given to the deposition

14 officer at the time said testimony was taken, the

following includes all parties of record:

15 Dan Siegel, Attorney for Plaintiffs;

Kathy C. Potter, Attorney for Defendants.

16 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,

related to, nor employed by any of the parties in the

17 action in which this proceeding was taken, and further

that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the

18 outcome of this action.

Further certification requirements pursuant to will

19 be certified to after they have occurred.

Sworn to by me this ______ day of February, 2001.




Certification No. 2896

22 Expiration Date: 12-31-02


3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110

24 Houston, Texas 77027

(7l3) 623-4434





3 ____________________________________________________

4 ____________________________________________________

5 ____________________________________________________

6 ____________________________________________________

7 ____________________________________________________

8 ____________________________________________________

9 ____________________________________________________

10 ____________________________________________________

11 ____________________________________________________

12 ____________________________________________________

13 ____________________________________________________

14 ____________________________________________________

15 ____________________________________________________

16 ____________________________________________________

17 ____________________________________________________

18 ____________________________________________________

19 ____________________________________________________

20 ____________________________________________________

21 ____________________________________________________

22 ____________________________________________________

23 ____________________________________________________

24 I, MICHEAL PALMER, have read the foregoing

25 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is


1 true and correct, except as noted above.



4 _____________________________





9 )

10 COUNTY OF _________)



13 Before me __________________ (name of officer) on

14 this day personally appeared __________________, known to

15 me or proved to me to be the person whose name is

16 subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged

17 to me that he executed the same for the purposes and

18 consideration therein expressed.


20 (Seal) Given under my hand and seal of

21 office this _____ day of _____________, ______.


23 ___________________________________________

24 Notary Public in and for the State of Texas




2 The original deposition transcript or Changes and

3 Signature page was/was not returned to the deposition

4 officer on ______________;

5 If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page

6 contains any changes and the reasons therefor;

7 If returned, the original deposition transcription

8 was delivered to ___________________ for safekeeping on

9 ____________;

10 That a copy of this certificate was served on all

11 parties shown herein.

12 Witness my hand this __________ day of

13 ______________, ________.



16 _____________________________


17 Certification No. 2896

Expiration Date: 12-31-02



19 3637 W. Alabama, Suite 110

Houston, Texas 77027

20 (7l3) 623-4434